Autism Spectrum Disorder, class 1

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AviationDad

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AviationDad
Hi,
I’m the proud Dad of a son with Autism Spectrum Disorder who is currently at a university working on his degree for Aviation Operations with goal of airline pilot. When he enrolled at the school, we told the chief flight instructor about his diagnosis and they just said he needed to get his AME completed before he can solo. He did his AME without understanding the whole process, limitations with meds etc... BL he received a denial based on not just the medications (which he is working to switch SSRI to Wellbutrin which is now on the FAA list) but also an incorrect diagnosis of Bipolar 1 which they must have gotten from his medical records that was incorrect (he was misdiagnosed with bipolar at age 5! By a crazy psych we ended up firing. Unfortunately it is still in his records. My question is 1. Assuming he can change med to Wellbutrin and wait 60 days and get re-evaluated...can he re-do the AME at that time and will they then see the current diagnosis? 2. What are the chances of getting a class 1 with him on Wellbutrin?
Thanks
 
AviationDad said:
Hi,
I’m the proud Dad of a son with Autism Spectrum Disorder who is currently at a university working on his degree for Aviation Operations with goal of airline pilot. When he enrolled at the school, we told the chief flight instructor about his diagnosis and they just said he needed to get his AME completed before he can solo. He did his AME without understanding the whole process, limitations with meds etc... BL he received a denial based on not just the medications (which he is working to switch SSRI to Wellbutrin which is now on the FAA list) but also an incorrect diagnosis of Bipolar 1 which they must have gotten from his medical records that was incorrect (he was misdiagnosed with bipolar at age 5! By a crazy psych we ended up firing. Unfortunately it is still in his records. My question is 1. Assuming he can change med to Wellbutrin and wait 60 days and get re-evaluated...can he re-do the AME at that time and will they then see the current diagnosis? 2. What are the chances of getting a class 1 with him on Wellbutrin?
Thanks
Click to expand...

He needs to get with an AME who has deep knowledge of these kinds of diagnoses. Do not attempt this again without one. There are two who somewhat regularly post here: Dr. Bruce Chien (www.aeromedicaldoc.com), or Dr. Lou Fowler (https://flightphysical.com/dr-fowler).

This will involve proving to the FAA that he never had Bipolar disorder and other things that his meds could be for. You need an expert and it will likely not be cheap.
 
1.) 100% correct that you need to consult with one of the two doctors listed above.
2.) IHMO it’s quite rotten that the school took your money while seemingly brushing off the medical issue. The medical should have been addressed before starting school.
 
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ohhhhh...Aviation dad, this is "very not good". I have been doing the complex ones for 22 years. 75% of my cases are special issuances. Seven federal air surgeons in a row have vowed to never certify any one who even vaguely might be bipolar. And that is even with the knowledge that in the early 2000s, kids with oppositional defiant disorder were categorized as bipolar until we got the O.D.D. code.

My last one took four years of P&P evaluations and he finally was granted after $28,000 and 4 years of expert opinions. He's on one of the tightest 6 year HIMS AME sponsored SIs I've ever held. He's only got four more years to go. His diagnosis came from a famous Connecticut "Dr Bipolar" doctor, who died with that reputation. That doc is posthumously, still well known.

Now as to autuism spectrum, I have succeeded just twice. Just twice in 23 years of doing these. Both had to see the federal external academic consultant (ANNUALLY) and both were very minimal on the spectrum. Why? MARITIME LAW. Asea, the PIC is the judge, jury and baliff all at once and the very thing that put a person on the spectrum, defective interactions with other persons, is why this is problemmatic for the agency.

If he's in leadership roles that require social interactive skills this might be do-able, but I can pretty well tell you it's not going to happen in his college years. FAA's view: "Show us that he has these skills and no worrisome interactions. Demonstrate this over time. Document it with experts who WE know well, and over time." You're not even in the ballpark.

In answer to your Wellbutrin question: "NO". When we wrote (I was one of the four authors) the SSRI petition in 2005/6 we excluded wellbutrin because the neurocogntivie profile was TERRIBLE.

I can be reached at my tagline which takes you to the website....where you can message me.
 
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Hey @bbchien -- This is the second thread where you closed with a variant of:
edit: wrong link
However, you have no current tagline. (Just an FYI)
 
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bbchien said:
On my chrome browser, floating the cursor over http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com brings up my webpage....hmmmm. Just tired it in IE and it's there....but it's not there if the user isn't signed in.... "curioser and curioser"
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Sorry, I was pointing out that your weblink is not in your post. See post #6 and #4.

The link does work as expected, jsstevens put it in post #2.
 
Ravioli said:
Sorry, I was pointing out that your weblink is not in your post. See post #6 and #4.

The link does work as expected, jsstevens put it in post #2.
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His weblink is posted in his signature. Do you have signatures turned off? Or maybe you are viewing on a phone?

I clicked on it, and it goes to Dr. Chien's site. I'm even using Safari, not Chrome.
 
As a dad with a daughter in college, I applaud your guidance with your son's career path and education.
1) I'm sorry the school took your money
2) There are many great things he can and will do - but he will not be an airline pilot.
 
Groundpounder said:
My one piece of advice to all wannabe professional airline pilots is to pass a 1st class medical before you spend any money on flight lessons. Saves a lot of heartache and gnashing of teeth later on.
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And that is why I think this particular school was quite slimy, they *KNOW* this, yet took this families money anyway. I think the OP should out the school so others know to avoid them. Schools like this gave aviation a bad name.
 
bbchien said:
ohhhhh...Aviation dad, this is "very not good". I have been doing the complex ones for 22 years. 75% of my cases are special issuances. Seven federal air surgeons in a row have vowed to never certify any one who even vaguely might be bipolar. And that is even with the knowledge that in the early 2000s, kids with oppositional defiant disorder were categorized as bipolar until we got the O.D.D. code.

My last one took four years of P&P evaluations and he finally was granted after $28,000 and 4 years of expert opinions. He's on one of the tightest 6 year HIMS AME sponsored SIs I've ever held. He's only got four more years to go. His diagnosis came from a famous Connecticut "Dr Bipolar" doctor, who died with that reputation. That doc is posthumously, still well known.

Now as to autuism spectrum, I have succeeded just twice. Just twice in 23 years of doing these. Both has to see the federal external academic consultant (ANNUALLY) and both were very minimal on the spectrum. Why? MARITIME LAW. Asea, the PIC is the judge, jury and baliff all at once and the very thing that put a person on the spectrum, defective interactions with other persons, is why this is problemmatic for the agency.

If he's in leadership roles that require social interactive skills this might be do-able, but I can pretty well tell you it's not going to happen in his college years. FAA's view: "Show us that he has these skills an no worrisome interactions. Demonstrate this over time. Document it with experts who WE know well, and over time." You're not even in the ballpark.

In answer to your Wellbutrin question: "NO". When we wrote (I was one of the four authors) the SSRI petition in 2005/6 we excluded wellbutrin because the neurocogntivie profile was TERRIBLE.

I can be reached at my tagline which takes you to the website....where you can message me.
Click to expand...

AviationDad - Dr. Bruce knows of what he speaks, obviously. Your efforts for your son are laudable. Truly. If you and he are willing to make the time and financial commitment to see this through to a (hopefully) successful completion, you should hire Dr. Bruce, follow his advice TO THE LETTER (and the dollar), and have him walk you through the process. No guarantees of success, but he would be your best shot at a good outcome.

Good luck!
 
I think what is worse than no hope is false hope.
 
All,
It has been almost 2 years since my last post. We ended up getting with Pilot Medical Solutions (although now I wish I had taken your advice and gotten help from one of the two doctors you listed). My son has been off ALL medications now for 2 years and had new psychological and psychiatric evaluations done which describe his correct diagnosis (Autism Spectrum) and DO NOT include Bipolar (which was never correct anyway due to a childhood doctor who used that diagnosis for all of his patients), FAA never would respond to the new information until we got our Senator involved. When they finally responded to our Senator's aide's inquiry, they repeated the same denial but this time claim it was for a class 3 medical because "We" took too long to appeal (actually it was THEY who stonewalled for so long!!) and they obviously didn't look at the new Psych evals since they still claim he has a diagnosis of Bipolar when the updated evals say otherwise...This is ridiculous. After spending $$$ I am still willing to do whatever it takes for my son to follow his dream. He has now skipped two semesters in a row with his University pending his medical. Should we still seek help from one of the two doctors mentioned above?
 
Hi Its me (the original poster lost login info so started new account).. It's been over 2 years since I posted the original message here. My son is on the second semester in a row he is skipping because of NO action by the FAA on his appeal. We ended up going through pilot medical solutions to assist us (thousands of $$$). He is not on ANY medications anymore and has had new psychological and psychiatric evals that only show his autism spectrum disorder and state that his early childhood diagnosis of bipolar was not correct (when our son was 5, we had a doctor who used Bipolar I for everyone and everything). Even after all of this and years of Pilot Medical solutions asking for status update after the new submittal, nothing...nada from FAA...We ended up getting our Senator's office involved and after 2 months, the FAA finally responded. They still put a denial due to his Old/incorrect diagnosis and said class 3 because all this time has gone by past the time limit for appealing the class 1 (Crazy since all the time was from their DELAY!!!). They Senator's office said they are not authorized to overturn a federal agency's decision. At this point should i still seek doctor Chien or Doctor Fowler? My son won't give up his dream and I firmly support him...
 
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You can contact one of them, but I have no clue if they can help.

Does he just want to fly, or is he set on flying for a living?
 
Thanks for the quick reply! He wants to be an airline pilot and has already completed everything he can in the cockpit so far without the medical at his university (and has excelled according to his flight instructor!). He has wanted this his whole life and we will do whatever it takes for him to follow his dream.
 
In that case, I would advise contacting one or both and see if there is any way forward for your son. Good luck!
 
I’ll bet the school recommended PMS ( how quaint ). One of my neighbors went with a similar company even after I explained the process and recommended our 2 fave experts. He’s not happy.
 
No they didn't recommend that. I found it online. I am trying to get my $$$ back (wish us luck!)
 
Maybe your current situation will be helpful to any new people in the same boat when we recommend our two resident docs. There might still be hope, but the only way to know for sure is to contact them. Good luck.
 
You might want to re-read dr Chiens response from two years ago. You might not like his answer - but you haven’t gotten elsewhere either. Maybe his numbers have changed but you are climbing a 2 successful in now 25 years with his ASD diagnosis. So if you are willing - you should contact and see what he has to say if it’s any different than before.
 
AviationDad2 said:
Hi Its me (the original poster lost login info so started new account).. It's been over 2 years since I posted the original message here. My son is on the second semester in a row he is skipping because of NO action by the FAA on his appeal. We ended up going through pilot medical solutions to assist us (thousands of $$$). He is not on ANY medications anymore and has had new psychological and psychiatric evals that only show his autism spectrum disorder and state that his early childhood diagnosis of bipolar was not correct (when our son was 5, we had a doctor who used Bipolar I for everyone and everything). Even after all of this and years of Pilot Medical solutions asking for status update after the new submittal, nothing...nada from FAA...We ended up getting our Senator's office involved and after 2 months, the FAA finally responded. They still put a denial due to his Old/incorrect diagnosis and said class 3 because all this time has gone by past the time limit for appealing the class 1 (Crazy since all the time was from their DELAY!!!). They Senator's office said they are not authorized to overturn a federal agency's decision. At this point should i still seek doctor Chien or Doctor Fowler? My son won't give up his dream and I firmly support him...
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Either Dr. Chien (who replied above), Dr. Fowler, or another "hard case" Senior AME who will do a CONSULTATION with you before your son fills out a new medical application.
 
Lindberg said:
Either Dr. Chien (who replied above), Dr. Fowler, or another "hard case" Senior AME who will do a CONSULTATION with you before your son fills out a new medical application.
Click to expand...
Dr. Chien already weighed in, in post #4.
 
AviationDad2 said:
At this point should i still seek doctor Chien or Doctor Fowler? My son won't give up his dream and I firmly support him...
Click to expand...

They are the best. No guarantees they can get results, but your son's best chance is with them.
 
Even if you can get a 1st class medical- can he afford to maintain it? Will he be hirable with that background? There is a high chance it won’t work out. What then?

Applaud supporting your child. But at what point do you say you’re great, but this isn’t your path. So many other things you can do. Aeronautical engineering?
 
WDD said:
Will he be hirable with that background?
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If he meets the FAA’s flying and medical criteria, and employers’ hiring criteria, employers cannot discriminate on the basis that he’s on the spectrum. ADA (and state equivalents).
 
Reaffirming the autism diagnosis is not really a victory here. Just another huge obstacle. Like Dr Chien (who does this for a living) said, hard to get. Only open door is likely an older person eho can sho history of handling a lot of personal interactions in a leadership capacity. Not a lot of kids in college environment have that leg to stand on.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
If he meets the FAA’s flying and medical criteria, and employers’ hiring criteria, employers cannot discriminate on the basis that he’s on the spectrum. ADA (and state equivalents).
Click to expand...
Exactly. In fact this all is beginning to appear to be discrimination. I have read other pilot forms with plenty of pilots that are "on the spectrum". Other than quirks like lining up pencils in a neat row there is little to differentiate and most people do not even know that a person might be on the autism spectrum
 
I appreciate the opinions of some of you who say to move on. However we will fight on...we have overcome so many obstacles and stigmas over the years with my son's autism and we cannot and will not stop fighting to continue what he has started. By the way he has already completed all Private Pilot, instrument and commercial I flight instruction that was possible so far without the med clearance at his university...and he has THRIVED in college and in the air.
 
I commend you on your persistence. Good luck.

As for your choice of drugs. I dont know your options. I have a kid on the spectrum as well, so know some of this. But I have read that wellbutrin has very little chance of being accepted. Something about the psycho profile or something. Search on Dr Chiens comment about this. I know its listed somewhere - but he commented the reality of it. And of course, you also have to do what is best for your son and what works best. And what works best in life is what you should strive for vs making sacrifices just to pass a medical. Anyhow - something to consider.

I really wish you had gotten information beforehand so that potentially his light sport options were still open, but alas, that door looks to be closed as well.
 
AviationDad2 said:
I appreciate the opinions of some of you who say to move on. However we will fight on...we have overcome so many obstacles and stigmas over the years with my son's autism and we cannot and will not stop fighting to continue what he has started. By the way he has already completed all Private Pilot, instrument and commercial I flight instruction that was possible so far without the med clearance at his university...and he has THRIVED in college and in the air.
Click to expand...


Your best bet for "fighting on" is probably going to be with Dr. Bruce. As one of the authors of the FAA SSRI protocol, he knows how the FAA will look at things and what they need to see. As he told you, this will be a long and expensive journey with no guarantee of success.

Given that, you might suggest to your son that he switch majors and get a degree completed while fighting on. Fight if you and he choose, but don't let it put his life permanently on hold. One thing that may help with the FAA will be demonstrating a successful life, so your fight strategy might include finishing college and getting established in a career, even if it's not his ultimate goal. That will also help mitigate an ultimate failure with the FAA, and that has a very real chance of occurrence.

I recommend you contact Bruce, have a consultation meeting with him, and with his guidance map out your fight plan.

Good luck to your son.
 
Anthem said:
I commend you on your persistence. Good luck.

As for your choice of drugs. I dont know your options. I have a kid on the spectrum as well, so know some of this. But I have read that wellbutrin has very little chance of being accepted. Something about the psycho profile or something. Search on Dr Chiens comment about this. I know its listed somewhere - but he commented the reality of it. And of course, you also have to do what is best for your son and what works best. And what works best in life is what you should strive for vs making sacrifices just to pass a medical. Anyhow - something to consider.

I really wish you had gotten information beforehand so that potentially his light sport options were still open, but alas, that door looks to be closed as well.
Click to expand...

Anthem- he is not on any medications
 
Half Fast said:
Your best bet for "fighting on" is probably going to be with Dr. Bruce. As one of the authors of the FAA SSRI protocol, he knows how the FAA will look at things and what they need to see. As he told you, this will be a long and expensive journey with no guarantee of success.

Given that, you might suggest to your son that he switch majors and get a degree completed while fighting on. Fight if you and he choose, but don't let it put his life permanently on hold. One thing that may help with the FAA will be demonstrating a successful life, so your fight strategy might include finishing college and getting established in a career, even if it's not his ultimate goal. That will also help mitigate an ultimate failure with the FAA, and that has a very real chance of occurrence.

I recommend you contact Bruce, have a consultation meeting with him, and with his guidance map out your fight plan.

Good luck to your son.
Click to expand...
Thank you!
 
Unfortunately Dr. Chien was a no-go due to his case load. My son said he will try Dr. Fowler. Keeping fingers crossed..
 
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