Total disappointment with 4 local avionics shops

beechcraft flyer

beechcraft flyer

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 28, 2019
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beech pilot
For the life of me i never have dealt with such a horrid caliber of businesses in my life. I live in central California and for the life of me i have been begging for quotes and REASONABLE ones at that for an ifr gps install. They either take forever for a quote or the quotes are so f@^#%ng ridiculous. One quote was for a used gns530 with GI 106a navigator for 22k.The other was a gns530 with 2 gi275's for 41k. I have a bonanza and i feel like i have better luck doing business with a kid selling lemonade on the street corner. Please if anyone knows of any avionics shops that want business at reasonable prices in Calif please let me know. Rant over thank you.
 
A couple of years ago, residential contractors were so busy, they couldn't keep up with demand. This seemed to have led some of them to believe that not only could they pick and choose which jobs to show up for. But, they could also treat their customers shabbily and still charge astronomical rates. I know because I wound up teaching myself how to install hardwood flooring after being ghosted by one contractor, and refusing to be extorted by another.

I think the GA avionics market has become like this. The ADS-B mandate, COVID and supply chain problems all converged to cause it. But, that doesn't excuse poor customer service.
 
Take your avionics parts cost and double it for install labor. So a $20k Garmin xxx will probably cost you $40k all in. That’s certified install. And that’s why this cowboy doesn’t have one in his plane.

I’d avoid a new install of an old 430/530 personally. Labor cost will be the same and one day soon they will quit supporting the old models.
 
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texasclouds said:
Take your avionics parts cost and double it for install labor. So a $20k Garmin 650 will probably cost you $40k all in.
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Those “estimates” are completely false.

650Xi is $12k and installed costs are about 50% of parts costs. If you are upgrading from a 430 you can get a 650 INSTALLED for $10.8k, the old 430 you trade in effectively pays for the install and 10% discount on the 650. If you have a 430W, it’s only $8239.

The 50% rule of thumb applies to expensive boxes, for example an audio panel will probably be double as it’s only $2.5k.
 
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MooneyDriver78 said:
Those “estimates” are completely false.

650Xi is $12k and installed costs are about 50% of parts costs. If you are upgrading from a 430 you can get a 650 INSTALLED for $10.8k, the old 430 you trade in effectively pays for the install and 10% discount on the 650. If you have a 430W, it’s only $8239.

The 50% rule of thumb applies to expensive boxes, for example an audio panel will probably be double as it’s only $2.5k.
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Just one datapoint, but our dual G5 install w/magnetometer was done in the fall of 2020 right at $11K. The estimate was $5500 in parts and $4400 labor. Parts were subject to sales tax, labor was not. Labor went a bit long and we had a 90-day wait for an install slot.

Reputable shop and two other estimates were in the same ballpark.
 
Well, I am a fisherman…so sometimes I exaggerate a small amount. But honestly, by the time you walk out the door on a 650/750 install you get the GPS, a couple G5s, an audio panel, a nice transponder, and oh let’s rewire the whole panel. Three to six months later you are looking at a bill quite a bit larger than expected.
 
I suspect you're getting the "we have plenty of work lined up putting in shiny new avionics and don't really feel like putting used equipment in" price. The cost of labor and doing business in California probably also has a lot to do with it.
 
The other shops either will not get back to me or want me to fly the plane to them to look at the panel, i guess panel pics sent via email don't work or they simply just do not take me serious. i do believe most shops have gotten to big for their britches. A small guy used to be honored and respected now unless you have a 500k airplane and where a rolex your considered nothing. I fly light ifr and simply only need to be legal to fly gps approaches etc. I appreciate all the help from everyone upload_2023-1-14_7-58-20.png
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
The installation costs are the same, other than saving a few AMUs on equipment costs I see no benefits. The GTN functionality are clearly superior and support for 20 year old equipment can’t last forever.
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The GNS is faster, GTN looks nice and airways are easier to load
 
"Garmin products hard to get now at least 3 months out" yet i find most or all in stock at Chief , Sarasota , aircraft spruce etc...
 
SamSES said:
The GNS is faster, GTN looks nice and airways are easier to load
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Faster than the new GTNs (Xi)?

GTN also can do unpublished holds, VNAV, smart glide if paired with GFC500, handles vectors to final better to mention a few other features.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Faster than the new GTNs (Xi)?

GTN also can do unpublished holds, VNAV, smart glide if paired with GFC500, handles vectors to final better to mention a few other features.
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Faster

I can’t recall doing any type of hold outside of on a checkride, never had a need for smart glide, twist direct enter enter and IAS at best glide, never had a issue with VTF when used appropriately
 
beechcraft flyer said:
The other shops either will not get back to me or want me to fly the plane to them to look at the panel, i guess panel pics sent via email don't work or they simply just do not take me serious.
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Having done two transponder and two NAV/COM installations under supervision I can sympathize with them. I wouldn't quote the job until I had seen what's behind the panel.
I used to think the 1:1 parts/labor charge was gouging, but when you get in there you have to un-f*** the rats nest left by previous "upgrades". The older the plane the more of a mess you start with.
 
Come on over to Florida where prices are more reasonable and you get a vacation. Plenty of reasonable shops to choose from.
 
tsts4 said:
hmmm ok. Never had any issue with speed doing any of that on a 650, but I guess when fractions of a second count….

that still wouldn’t sell me on a GNS over GNT.
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Aside from airways the GTN doesn’t offer anything, and airways vs speed, foreflight will break the airway into waypoints, speed wins
 
One reason the shops may not be excited installing used vs new is Warranty support. Install a GNS that craps out the next day and they're on the hook. Do the same with a GTN and Garmin will back it up.
If it were me quoting, I'd build in a risk premium to my price for that alone.
 
SamSES said:
Aside from airways the GTN doesn’t offer anything, and airways vs speed, foreflight will break the airway into waypoints, speed wins
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Stop. We’re talking GNS vs GTN. Don’t bring FF into this. I think you’re discounting future support and database updates, both of which favor the GTNs IMO. The speed comparison is a wash in reality, regardless of what you say. You want to stick with a box on its way to obsolescence and non-supportability, go right ahead.
 
tsts4 said:
Stop. We’re talking GNS vs GTN. Don’t bring FF into this. I think you’re discounting future support and database updates, both of which favor the GTNs IMO. The speed comparison is a wash in reality, regardless of what you say. You want to stick with a box on its way to obsolescence and non-supportability, go right ahead.
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I prefer the GNS knobs in turbulence. End of list, really, for reasons to prefer it over a 750.

The GNS + Flightstream 210 + iPad gets it done for me right now and is sorta the best of both worlds. When my 530 becomes obsolete, my choices are the oddball 540 Avidyne or continue with the popular 750 and enjoy another 2 decades of support. It'll be a no-brainer.

To the point, if I was installing something today, it wouldn't be a 530. I secretly wonder how OP's quotes would compare with a new 750 install. I suspect it might actually be cheaper to get the brand new box over the used 530, just due to familiarity/recency and shop confidence/preference.
 
I get the knobs in turbulence thing, but in reality I’ve never had an issue with the 650’s touch screen so I see that as a Ford-Chevy, personal preference debate. Going direct is super simple and I can make changes to the flight plan very quickly without the need for external gear. Because of fast approaching obsolescence, I see no upside to a GNS and the cheaper price is really a false economy IMO.
 
SamSES said:
Doing a direct to, getting frequencies and so on

Just less fluff and once learned those knobs are faster
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Yeah, pushing two buttons is much slower and less intuitive than spinning that little knob :rolleyes:

schmookeeg said:
I prefer the GNS knobs in turbulence.
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I hear people say this all the time, but in 300 hours behind mine, only once have I hit the wrong "button" due to turbulence. Where are you guys flying that you're getting beaten around so much? I'll admit that there is a bit of a learning curve as you figure out the technique of bracing your hand on the frame.

There is still a spinny knob. I couldn't tell you what all it does though as the touchscreen is so intuitive that I never use it.
 
tsts4 said:
Stop. We’re talking GNS vs GTN. Don’t bring FF into this. I think you’re discounting future support and database updates, both of which favor the GTNs IMO. The speed comparison is a wash in reality, regardless of what you say. You want to stick with a box on its way to obsolescence and non-supportability, go right ahead.
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Jepp is not going to stop supporting the GNS anytime remotely soon, why would they? With how many are in the fleet and what little it costs to output the data in a different format? Why would they? Jepp still supports some very old prolines and much older garmin products too

Speed wise I can go direct to the nearest, swap frequencies and a hand full of other things without even looking at the unit
 
SamSES said:
Jepp is not going to stop supporting the GNS anytime remotely soon, why would they? With how many are in the fleet and what little it costs to output the data in a different format? Why would they? Jepp still supports some very old prolines and much older garmin products too
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my bad, but I didn’t say they wouldn’t and I didn’t mean to infer they would. However you don’t need a Jepp subscription for the GTNs so that gives you options plus since the GTNs use regular SD cards and no dongle advantage GTN in my book.
 
tsts4 said:
my bad, but I didn’t say they wouldn’t and I didn’t mean to infer they would. However you don’t need a Jepp subscription for the GTNs so that gives you options plus since the GTNs use regular SD cards and no dongle advantage GTN in my book.
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Price wise is there much of a difference in databases?

In some ways I prefer jepp as they don’t have any dog in the fight of me being forced to “upgrade”, jepp just wants me to have a subscription to something lol
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
and support for 20 year old equipment can’t last forever.
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tsts4 said:
You want to stick with a box on its way to obsolescence and non-supportability, go right ahead.
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Jim K said:
Where are you guys flying that you're getting beaten around so much?
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Apropos of nothing, the cappy of the triple-siete that blew the cowling off the engine over the Pacific, related to ol blancolirio in an interview that they were so @sses and elbows with the clap trap vibrating so bad that the FO couldn't physically access the checklist...cuz it's electronic/touchscreen. #oof Talk about bringing a kid's toy to a man's job.

So they ended up doing like us unruly sport of king practitioners....and memory actioned the snot outta that thing, like men. Or as we call it in SRM land, Tuesday. :D
/TC
 
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