VFR/IFR flight - departure question

[Pi1otguy]

Let's say I'm planning a flight and the departure airport is VMC but I expect IMC in route. I wish to depart VFR to avoid delays.

Yes, I could do a pop up but what is the preferred way to file and receive clearance?

Do I file VFR/IFR with comments "departing VFR"? Do I file IFR with the route starting from an intersection? Something else?

 

[tsts4]

I've always just filed normally and picked it up in the air once I've departed. It's not a pop up since it was filed and should be in the system. The only difference is instead of talking to them on the phone, it's via the radio. One of the potential downsides is you have to be able to stay VFR while this is all going down and it can be way busier doing it in the air, especially if it's bumpy and the clearance is long and complex.

 

[Pinecone]

You can also file, call and get your clearance, then depart VFR and call and activate your clearance.

I have done this when they start saying delays for release.

 

[chemgeek]

Don't expect to get a cold pop-up IFR clearance, especially in busy airspace. If IFR conditions are not expected for a while after departure, I usually file and pick up my clearance with Approach shortly after departure. If conditions are MVFR or IFR in the vicinity, I call and get a void time. I rarely have any delays when requesting a void time. There is nothing worse than being stuck in MVFR conditions trying to get an IFR clearance you could have got on the ground. I did that once when making a short hop to SYR for some maintenance, and fortunately Approach helpfully accommodated me for my suboptimal planning. (It was VFR at home and MVFR at SYR, but in between it was IMC. I should have just filed.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

There are several options. These are the ones I can think of off-hand.

1. File IFR from the departure airport and pick it up before departure. Avoiding delays is the primary reason for not doing this, so some will...

2. File IFR from the departure airport and pick it up in the air. There are two potential problems here. The big one is, IFR release is based on traffic - fitting you into the system. The traffic situation that leads to delays in being released don't suddenly disappear because you are in the air. I don't remember which one, but there's a Baron Pilot YouTube where he tried this strategy to avoid a delay and was denied a clearance once in the air and about to encounter IMC, even well away from the departure area. It's a good one to show the problem with this strategy. I actually do air pickups all the time in my area (from a non-towered airport so I can avoid the void time game) but not when it's even marginal VFR. I also wouldn't do it at all in airspace that is always busy, like the NYC area. The other issue is how far will you go before opening. The departure TRACON or Center and maybe an adjoining TRACON might have you flight plan sitting there; another may have to scramble to find it. Of course, if you delay long enough, your IFR flight pan will time out.

3. File IFR from a location other than the departure airport. I did it once many years ago. Filed from an enroute VOR (if I did it today, I'd use an enroute airport) and pick it up in the air. I only did it because the departure airport was remote and had no services, no decent cell phone coverage, and not even a pay phone to make the call. I simply have had no reason do it otherwise, and even then, #1 would have been just as good because it wasn't far away.

4. File a VFR/IFR flight plan. Unless you have some other reason to file a VFR flight plan, I don't think it does anything helpful. ATC doesn't even see VFR flight plans. I don't know if that's true for the VFR portion of a VFR/IFR filing but even if they do, I don't see the benefit ove any of the other options.

5. Pure cold call pop-up (no advance filing at all). All the same issues as with #1 plus a busy controller who might say, "unable. Contact flight service to file." I reserve that for the unexpected.

 

[Pi1otguy]

I rarely have any delays when requesting a void time.

The nature of our airspace means the approach and ODP for 4 or 5 fields overlap.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The nature of our airspace means the approach and ODP for 4 or 5 fields overlap.

Keep in mind that you may need to fly quite a distance before that airspace is freed up. Not knowing the specifics, I’d try filing from an enroute fix, possibly in Center airspace rather than Approach.

I’d also suggest phone calls to Approach and/or Center to see if they have a low traffic area or two that they might suggest filing/picking up clearance from. Communication can be a wonderful thing.

 

[Rgbeard]

File.
Depart VFR.
Pickup with your center controller.
Enjoy.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Keep in mind that you may need to fly quite a distance before that airspace is freed up. Not knowing the specifics, I’d try filing from an enroute fix, possibly in Center airspace rather than Approach.

File.
Depart VFR.
Pickup with your center controller.
Enjoy.

A good idea. I've done that for cold calling a few times. But it assumes you have Center airspace to be in. Many pilots fly in areas where there is none until you get to at least 10,000 feet. The northeast and SOCAL come to mind immediately.

 

[John Collins]

In the US, a composite VFR/IFR flight plan is not supported. If you depart from your airport VFR and contact the local departure control, they will have access to your flight plan. Assuming they are not busy, you can usually pickup your clearance from them.

Picking up a clearance from the relevant center is not always obvious, because only the center that handles your flight will have access to your flight plan and centers make agreements with each other and delegate airspace from one center to another., particularly within 50 NM of the charted center boundaries. As an example, KPIA and much of the surrounding airspace is part of Chicago Center airspace, but all flight plans in that vicinity are processed by Kansas City Center, which means that if you call Chicago Center to pickup your clearance, they won't have it, you would have to call Kansas City Center. Each airport is assigned a Center that is responsible for processing their flight plans and for FSS (called the tie-in facility). This is published in an FAA order 7350.9CC and used by flight plan filing systems to determine which center to route the flight plan to for processing. If you file from a point that is not an airport, the FAA provides polygon's used to determine who handles the flight plan processing. The only way I know of to determine which center your flight plan got filed with on ForeFlight is to display the ICAO Flight Plan form and decode the Addressee(s). For a US domestic flight plan this will be the 8 character address of the center and it always starts with a KZ and ends with ZQZX. The first four characters are the Center identifier, so KZAU is for Chicago Center and KZKC is Kansas City Center, so displaying the ICAO Flight Plan Form will show the addressee as KZKCZQZX or Kansas City Center. If you don't know the decode for the Center identifier, you can look up any Center on the ForeFlight Map view by doing a Tap-Hold and then Tap the FIR airspace, then tap Details and the center identifier is displayed at the top of the view.

Rather than file a flight plan originating at a fix or Nav facility, it is better to file from an airport along your route near the fix and when you get near to the airport or fix, call the departure control at the airport and tell them you are airborne, VFR and want to pickup your clearance at the fix. They will have access to your IFR flight plan and you avoid the possible issue with not knowing which center to contact.

 

[mr_happyland]

This is a common issue when departing my airport in Los Angeles (KWHP) as we are always conflicting with IFR traffic at nearby Burbank and Van Nuys. As much as I want to fly “in the system”, getting an IFR clearance can take from anywhere 5 minutes to 50 minutes.
If it’s VFR, I often just get FF to avoid the hassle. If it’s MVFR or IFR down the road, I sometimes file from my home airport and pickup in air….problem being sometimes it’s busy in the air you can literally hear the “sigh” of ATC when asking to pickup in the air.

 

[bluesky74656]

Depending on how much VMC you have, this might work too. It’s pretty easy for a controller to make an aircraft on VFR flight following into an IFR flight. So what I’ve done before is called up for flight following, and then when I know I’m going to need a clearance in the next half hour or so call up and ask for an IFR clearance at an IFR altitude. From what I understand, the controller just has to amend you to an IFR altitude and maybe one additional keystroke and your IFR. From my perspective, he asked if I was qualified and equipped, then “cleared to <destination>, maintain 8000.” It was very easy. Same caveat as departing VFR applies, if he doesn’t have room you may have to wait for a clearance, so know your plan B.

 

[Pinecone]

This is why I prefer to call for my clearance on the ground, but may launch VFR and activate in the air. If you have a long, complex routing, it takes a lot of time for the controller to give it to you and for you to read it back.

And once in the air, I have my clearance, and they can more easily fit me in, as I am in the air, not on the ground, where I may not take off for a couple of minutes, which would require more clear airspace is required.

 

[WDD]

Another POV. Unless you're facing an hour delay with getting clearance on the ground, nothing wrong with slowing it down and taking a few extra minutes. Take the time to get it all set up on the ground. If it's that close time wise, you might be facing "get there itis".

 

[Brad Z]

This is why I prefer to call for my clearance on the ground, but may launch VFR and activate in the air. If you have a long, complex routing, it takes a lot of time for the controller to give it to you and for you to read it back.

And once in the air, I have my clearance, and they can more easily fit me in, as I am in the air, not on the ground, where I may not take off for a couple of minutes, which would require more clear airspace is required.

I was going to suggest this too. It’s SOP at my airport under the approach to Washington National, particularly since we must have a flight plan that ATC sees regardless of whether we’re IFR or VFR. When calling to get your route clearance, you advise them that you’re planning on departing VFR and intend to open the IFR airborne. The controller you’re talking to may suggest a heading or direction to fly that will facilitate getting the clearance in the air, or perhaps suggest against the practice if there are operational issues.

Alternatively, if weather is not a problem, I’d file the initiation of my IFR flight plan from an immediate airport, preferably one in an area that is not particularly congested or on the edge of center airspace. When you depart from your starting airport, pick up VFR flight following and let them know you plan to eventually pick up your IFR flight plan at XYZ airport. That gives everyone plenty of time to coordinate, and depending on workload and how far away you filed, they may be able to get you on an IFR clearance as soon as they are workload permitting.

 

[Palmpilot]

Taking off VFR and picking up IFR can be dangerous at night. Half of Reba McEntire's band got killed while the pilots were trying to do that on departure from San Diego. That may have been a factor in the Superstition Mountains crash east of Phoenix as well.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is why I prefer to call for my clearance on the ground, but may launch VFR and activate in the air. If you have a long, complex routing, it takes a lot of time for the controller to give it to you and for you to read it back.

And once in the air, I have my clearance, and they can more easily fit me in, as I am in the air, not on the ground, where I may not take off for a couple of minutes, which would require more clear airspace is required.

Can you explain that a bit more? I'm not saying it can't be done.just wondering about the sequence and the words.

If ATC, for example, tells you to "hold for release," the AIM advises not to depart VFR without cancelling IFR And there's actually an old case where a pilot was dinged for it as a violation of 91.123 - the "hold" treated as an ATC IFR instruction violated by departing. It's a weird case and the AIM language on this point was changed multiple times in a very short time span. I have notes for an article on it but a missing a few old AIMs and I'm not sure how interesting it would be anyway.

 

[coma24]

Can you explain that a bit more? I'm not saying it can't be done.just wondering about the sequence and the words.

This is very common for departing N07 on a nice day, with delay being caused by nearby CDW/MMU IFR traffic. N90 issues the clearance with "hold for release." You read back the clearance and either pre-emptively say, "I can depart VFR," or, when negotiating the release time if they say "call back in 15 minutes and we'll see how it's looking.." that is a spectacular time to offer the VFR departure.

They'll go speak with the on-duty controller, and inevitably say, "ok, depart VFR, stay on the squawk code and call us in the air..."

You do exactly that, operating as a VFR aircraft on an assigned beacon code. Once you're talking to ATC, they'll radar ID you and then when separation allows, they'll say, "climb and maintain [new altitude]," after which you're considered to be IFR. In fact, most controllers will literally say that as part of the climb, too.

N90 is very much used to this as there is a VFR departure procedure at TEB which has IFR aircraft depart under VFR and then convert to IFR when ATC is able to do so. See the procedure here: http://nbaa1.wpengine.com/wp-conten...ions/airports/teb/Dalton2_TEB_Publication.pdf and notice the note at the bottom of the page which explains that a subsequent altitude assignment constitutes your IFR activation.

7110.65Z has section 4-3-9 "VFR Release of IFR Departure" which covers this procedure, however, it doesn't specifically talk about the pilot receiving a clearance on the ground then activating in the air. It can be read instead as a pilot calling up and requesting a VFR departure, 'priming the pump' to receive the clearance later. In practice, though, it makes a lot more sense for ATC to inform you of the expected clearance, including routing, altitude and squawk on the ground so that you're not starting from scratch with the busy departure controller, and so that you can process any significant route changes on the ground first.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is very common for departing N07 on a nice day, with delay being caused by nearby CDW/MMU IFR traffic. N90 issues the clearance with "hold for release." You read back the clearance and either pre-emptively say, "I can depart VFR," or, when negotiating the release time if they say "call back in 15 minutes and we'll see how it's looking.." that is a spectacular time to offer the VFR departure.

That makes absolute sense. Offering to depart VFR and getting an "OK, we'll be ready for you." Very different scenario than the one in the case I mentioned and the reason I asked.

it makes a lot more sense for ATC to inform you of the expected clearance, including routing, altitude and squawk on the ground

In your scenario, it's not really an "expected" clearance, at least in the sense of what several services provide. It's your real clearance, although with a VFR departure. There are places where that's quite common.

 

[John Collins]

I have notes for an article on it but a missing a few old AIMs and I'm not sure how interesting it would be anyway.

Regardless if it is interesting, I have electronic copies of the AIM back until the 2007 time frame.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Regardless if it is interesting, I have electronic copies of the AIM back until the 2007 time frame.

Thank you John. Not old enough. The case was 1992 (I cited it in my article on the AIM). By 1997 we have substantively the same language as today. The changes took place in the 1992-1997 time frame. I've managed to acquire a few through a variety of sources and have even tried some of the republishers to see if they have archive copies.

 

[Jereme Carne]

This conversation brings up a question; why is it only us GA pilots having this conversation? Do 135 or 121 operators get preference? Do they never have issues because it's in the system well in advance? I have never had an issue with getting a clearance but then again I don't fly out of LAX area or the like. I also put my flight into the system many hours in advance most times and I spend a fair amount of time looking at what ATC has recently cleared. So basically, why are we the ones having an issue getting cleared?

 

[luvflyin]

This is very common for departing N07 on a nice day, with delay being caused by nearby CDW/MMU IFR traffic. N90 issues the clearance with "hold for release." You read back the clearance and either pre-emptively say, "I can depart VFR," or, when negotiating the release time if they say "call back in 15 minutes and we'll see how it's looking.." that is a spectacular time to offer the VFR departure.

They'll go speak with the on-duty controller, and inevitably say, "ok, depart VFR, stay on the squawk code and call us in the air..."

You do exactly that, operating as a VFR aircraft on an assigned beacon code. Once you're talking to ATC, they'll radar ID you and then when separation allows, they'll say, "climb and maintain [new altitude]," after which you're considered to be IFR. In fact, most controllers will literally say that as part of the climb, too.

N90 is very much used to this as there is a VFR departure procedure at TEB which has IFR aircraft depart under VFR and then convert to IFR when ATC is able to do so. See the procedure here: http://nbaa1.wpengine.com/wp-conten...ions/airports/teb/Dalton2_TEB_Publication.pdf and notice the note at the bottom of the page which explains that a subsequent altitude assignment constitutes your IFR activation.

7110.65Z has section 4-3-9 "VFR Release of IFR Departure" which covers this procedure, however, it doesn't specifically talk about the pilot receiving a clearance on the ground then activating in the air. It can be read instead as a pilot calling up and requesting a VFR departure, 'priming the pump' to receive the clearance later. In practice, though, it makes a lot more sense for ATC to inform you of the expected clearance, including routing, altitude and squawk on the ground so that you're not starting from scratch with the busy departure controller, and so that you can process any significant route changes on the ground first.

There are more like that. Here’s one. To find others go to Section 3 of a Chart Supplement, Notices. Scan through Special Notices to see if there is one at an Airport you will be departing from.

 

[MauleSkinner]

This conversation brings up a question; why is it only us GA pilots having this conversation? Do 135 or 121 operators get preference? Do they never have issues because it's in the system well in advance? I have never had an issue with getting a clearance but then again I don't fly out of LAX area or the like. I also put my flight into the system many hours in advance most times and I spend a fair amount of time looking at what ATC has recently cleared. So basically, why are we the ones having an issue getting cleared?

I would guess that the majority of IFR 135 operators and the overwhelming majority of 121 operators either aren’t allowed to takeoff VFR to pick up an IFR clearance, or it’s so cumbersome as to be unreasonable.

In other words, they sit and wait for IFR release.

I have gotten creative and filed and accepted a clearance from teterboro to Augusta, Maine in order to takeoff for Minneapolis, but I knew exactly where the roadblock was and was willing to fly the wrong direction for a bit.

 

[coma24]

In your scenario, it's not really an "expected" clearance, at least in the sense of what several services provide. It's your real clearance, although with a VFR departure. There are places where that's quite common.

Agreed, I shouldn't have used the word 'expected' as it conveyed the wrong impression. It is a full-on clearance, but you're departing without an IFR release, albeit with the blessing of ATC.

Contrast this with KCDW which apparently has an SOP that fully prevents them from allow you to depart VFR if you have an IFR flight plan on file with an origin of KCDW. They will literally make you cancel the IFR flight plan before allowing you to leave, which would then preclude you picking it up in the air.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would guess that the majority of IFR 135 operators and the overwhelming majority of 121 operators either aren’t allowed to takeoff VFR to pick up an IFR clearance, or it’s so cumbersome as to be unreasonable.

In other words, they sit and wait for IFR release.

I agree. I can see an inflight pickup in the on-demand 135 world but can't even imagine it in the 121 world.

But if we're talking about release times, they happen in the 121 world too. @Jereme Carne, do you mean you've never been on commercial flight where they taxi from the gate and sit on the ramp for a long time. Release times are based on current traffic and , at least in my Part 91 world, it hasn't made a difference if I filed the day before or a half hour before.

 

[Jereme Carne]

I agree. I can see an inflight pickup in the on-demand 135 world but can't even imagine it in the 121 world.

But if we're talking about release times, they happen in the 121 world too. @Jereme Carne, do you mean you've never been on commercial flight where they taxi from the gate and sit on the ramp for a long time. Release times are based on current traffic and , at least in my Part 91 world, it hasn't made a difference if I filed the day before or a half hour before.

I have definitely sat on the ramp on commercial flights before. Probably for the reasons you mentioned. I just wondered if us GA pilots were the only ones having the issue or not as I'm not that familiar with the 121 world and they seem to have less of an issue (at least from my perspective).

Perhaps what is compounding my issue is that I fly in the least populous state in the country so getting denied a clearance or even a route change is virtually unheard of. Now, when I went in and out of Vegas, many route changes involved but still got a clearance very easily.

I've had the instrument ticket less than a year so I'm still learning.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That may have been a factor in the Superstition Mountains crash east of Phoenix as well.

IFR had nothing to do with that crash. It was a pure VFR flight trying to avoid the class B

 

[midlifeflyer]

Perhaps what is compounding my issue is that I fly in the least populous state in the country so getting denied a clearance or even a route change is virtually unheard of. Now, when I went in and out of Vegas, many route changes involved but still got a clearance very easily.

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm not sure what you mean by "denied a clearance." There's a big difference between a clearance and an IFR release. I can get a clearance a long time before departure. Good illustration is a modern Pre-Departure Clearance. You get the clearance - the actual clearance - by text, email or other medium 20-30 minutes before your filed departure time and it's good for 2 hours after. What do I mean by "actual clearance"? With PDC, you don't call Clearance Delivery at a B or C airport that uses it.

There are other examples of clearances being issued long before departure. It's not used as much as it could be, but there are pilots who will call for their clearance from the comfort of the FBO, telling ATC they will call back for their release later.

I distinguish the receipt of my clearance from the words "hold for release" tacked into the end. I have my clearance. I just can't use my clearance yet.

Dunno if it helps, but I think of the big picture this way. Contrasted to VFR, IFR is about operating in a system. The system has separation standards so any operation has an impact on all the others in an area. IFR releases are based on existing traffic, so it's natural to expect release, reroute, and other issues in busy areas that we don't have in remote ones. Heck all it takes is a wind change in a busy Class B or C area to produce a significant reroute. It also means I can expect more holds for release departing at a nontowered airport than a towered one because I am not in constant direct communication with ATC - a void time clearance means a window to fit me in. And more holds for release when when the weather is IFR just because ATC gets busier (I had an experience on my long solo student pilot cross country to prepare me for that ).

Part 121 priority? Spend some time watching the arrival/departure ballet during push times at busy major airports. Think about the ATC coordination going on when there are a dozen airlines which have been traveling for hours from diverse areas being funneled through an arrival gate so they can be sequenced for landing one after the other at the same time another dozen are being sequenced to depart so they can be sequenced for arrival somewhere else, hopefully on schedule. And where a delay in either usually means even longer delays downstream. I wouldn't doubt it 121 has priority. In fact I'd expect it.

 

[Jereme Carne]

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm not sure what you mean by "denied a clearance." There's a big difference between a clearance and an IFR release. I can get a clearance a long time before departure. Good illustration is a modern Pre-Departure Clearance. You get the clearance - the actual clearance - by text, email or other medium 20-30 minutes before your filed departure time and it's good for 2 hours after. What do I mean by "actual clearance"? With PDC, you don't call Clearance Delivery at a B or C airport that uses it.

There are other examples of clearances being issued long before departure. It's not used as much as it could be, but there are pilots who will call for their clearance from the comfort of the FBO, telling ATC they will call back for their release later.

I distinguish the receipt of my clearance from the words "hold for release" tacked into the end. I have my clearance. I just can't use my clearance yet.

Dunno if it helps, but I think of the big picture this way. Contrasted to VFR, IFR is about operating in a system. The system has separation standards so any operation has an impact on all the others in an area. IFR releases are based on existing traffic, so it's natural to expect release, reroute, and other issues in busy areas that we don't have in remote ones. Heck all it takes is a wind change in a busy Class B or C area to produce a significant reroute. It also means I can expect more holds for release departing at a nontowered airport than a towered one because I am not in constant direct communication with ATC - a void time clearance means a window to fit me in. And more holds for release when when the weather is IFR just because ATC gets busier (I had an experience on my long solo student pilot cross country to prepare me for that ).

Part 121 priority? Spend some time watching the arrival/departure ballet during push times at busy major airports. Think about the ATC coordination going on when there are a dozen airlines which have been traveling for hours from diverse areas being funneled through an arrival gate so they can be sequenced for landing one after the other at the same time another dozen are being sequenced to depart so they can be sequenced for arrival somewhere else, hopefully on schedule. And where a delay in either usually means even longer delays downstream. I wouldn't doubt it 121 has priority. In fact I'd expect it.

Sorry for the confusion. By denied a clearance I have never been denied a pop-up, been denied picking up in the air, or been given any long waits for a release (should have worded it different); but like I mentioned I fly in remote areas where separation isn't much of an issue for atc. All of your explanation makes perfect sense and reminds me of when I was training. Most of the time I get a clearance void time from my untowered fields but just to show you how remote it can be one day atc didn't issue a clearance void at the end. Of course I queried him a bit on it by saying, "are you sure there is no void time?". hahaha I guess there were no other aircraft anywhere near and I guess he didn't care how long I locked the field up for. Same goes for D and C that I fly out of, never been told to hold for release for very long at all. Maybe I'm just lucky or inexperienced. Or maybe a little of both. haha

 

[JEB]

Let's say I'm planning a flight and the departure airport is VMC but I expect IMC in route. I wish to depart VFR to avoid delays.

Yes, I could do a pop up but what is the preferred way to file and receive clearance?

Do I file VFR/IFR with comments "departing VFR"? Do I file IFR with the route starting from an intersection? Something else?

We probably fly in the same airspace. Here's a real life example of how I do it when I have nice VFR conditions at my airport (KFUL) but my destination - or the midpoint, is IFR.

Last week, I departed Fullerton with VFR flight following, headed to Visalia to drop off family. Conditions at VIS were trending towards VFR, but by the time I was over Gorman, I could tell that I'd need to go IFR. When SoCal handed me off to Bakersfield Approach, I checked in and told them that I'd need to convert to IFR when they had the free time to switch me over. They called me back in about 10 miles with an updated clearance and an altitude change. That was it. Super easy.

Coming back from Visalia about an hour later I filed for IFR using Foreflight on my iPad. I contacted Fresno Approach while I was still on the ground at the run-up area and told them that I was ready for IFR release. They had me wait for about 5 minutes, then released me for IFR departure.

If I had VFR conditions on the ground at VIS, I would have filed IFR on my iPad, but I would have taken off VFR, then contacted Fresno Approach from the air to let them know that I had IFR on file. They would have activated my IFR flight plan, confirmed (or amended) my clearance and given me a squawk code. If you have the IFR flight plan in place, it all goes very smoothly.

You'll probably see different advice from people who fly in different parts of the country. The different controlling agencies tend to have variations in how they like to do things. You commonly need to use a phone number found in the AFD information to contact Departure when you are on the ground - that's how it works at Fullerton when the tower is closed.

 

[coma24]

JEB, pop-up IFR within the same tracon as your destination is a slam dunk, very easily handled by the controllers.

Regarding the hypothetical VFR departure from VIS, picking up the clnc airborne from scratch with Fresno tracon, that works in most parts of the country, but there are places like New York tracon where they will rip you a new one if you try to do that. They want you to get a clearance on the ground (if not an actual release) to avoid having to issue full route clncs (which are very common) or route amendments. I heard a controller spend a VERY long time (ironically) telling a pilot that he didn't have time to issue his clearance in the air and that he should've gotten it on the ground, to which the pilot said he'd be doing it for more than a decade, to which the controller said, "then you've been doing it wrong for 10 years...."

It was spectacular...but does make the point that there are a spectrum of options, not all of which are the right choice for every type of airspace. Here's a good litmus test, if the controller is speaking to 5-7 airplanes in a row without taking a breath, you probably should've picked up the clnc on the ground. If it's a ghost town on freq, or anything close to it, you're probably fine.

 

[Brad W]

I was on a call a couple weeks back with a couple lawyers...(I am not a lawyer and very much do not know "the law"). One of them threw out the "I've been doing this 10 years, and..." It rubbed a nerve in me! I interrupted and basically went into crabby old man mode, 'advised' her that it's never a good idea to use that line. Makes here look bad and means absolutely nothing. She could have been doing it poorly for 10 years as far as anyone else knows. That line is sort of a pet peave for me.

 

[Mongoose Aviator]

They want you to get a clearance on the ground (if not an actual release) to avoid having to issue full route clncs (which are very common) or route amendments.

I just heard this in the air this past week, being a very long full route. Pilot response (instead of read back was) "Are you kidding?". Controller was professional and pretended not to hear/understand and asked for pilot to say again at which point the other pilot got down to business and started reading back the portion they wrote down. It was amusing. Low traffic time with not many aircraft apparently on the radio so probably not a big deal. But funny being the third party listening in.

 

[Brad Z]

I just heard this in the air this past week, being a very long full route. Pilot response (instead of read back was) "Are you kidding?". Controller was professional and pretended not to hear/understand and asked for pilot to say again at which point the other pilot got down to business and started reading back the portion they wrote down. It was amusing. Low traffic time with not many aircraft apparently on the radio so probably not a big deal. But funny being the third party listening in.

Sounds like he filed Boston to Philly direct and was surprised he didn't get "as filed" lol.

 

[martym]

This conversation brings up a question; why is it only us GA pilots having this conversation? Do 135 or 121 operators get preference? Do they never have issues because it's in the system well in advance?

A certificate holder does not get any preference and their flight plan is not in the system any sooner than anyone else's.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sounds like he filed Boston to Philly direct and was surprised he didn't get "as filed" lol.

I keep wondering whether that's what happened in my "The Clearance" video.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I was on a call a couple weeks back with a couple lawyers...(I am not a lawyer and very much do not know "the law"). One of them threw out the "I've been doing this 10 years, and..." It rubbed a nerve in me! I interrupted and basically went into crabby old man mode, 'advised' her that it's never a good idea to use that line. Makes here look bad and means absolutely nothing. She could have been doing it poorly for 10 years as far as anyone else knows. That line is sort of a pet peave for me.

Kind of like the words “I’ll teach you everything you need to know.” Just another version of “I don’t know, and I don’t care.”