Pre-Solo Written test

[TinmanJones]

Southpaw, no sir, I don't feel bad. I never started training with a career in mind or a timeline. Basically have just loved flying and airplanes since I was a kid. The passion (or money) don't run in my family, so I was never pushed or told "you can do that for a career if you want." It's always just been a passion as a hobby. So, with all the CFI's I've had, I've started the training with "I'm in no hurry here, I just want to fly airplanes." I think that has kind of added to how long it's taken me so far, but I feel like I'm closer now than any time over all the years.

 

[Pinecone]

We will need to agree to disagree.

How much to you deal with Federal regs? How much do you know about how to properly read them?

My favorite one was a reg that came out that the agency thought it said X. But it did not. They even put out official letters of interpretation. I told all my clients that it did not say that and I would not charge for my time if they cited.

A few years later I got hold the guy who wrote that section. I explained it did NOT say what the interpretations said. He disagreed. I asked him to read it again. He said he knew what it said. I said, just read it, but clear your mind of what you wanted it to say. A bit of silence, then "OH S**T, it doesn't say what I wanted it to say."

"Can" is NOT prescriptive. It makes it allowed, not required. "Shall" in a reg means you HAVE to do it that way.

Words matter.

 

[Walboy]

How much to you deal with Federal regs? How much do you know about how to properly read them?

My favorite one was a reg that came out that the agency thought it said X. But it did not. They even put out official letters of interpretation. I told all my clients that it did not say that and I would not charge for my time if they cited.

A few years later I got hold the guy who wrote that section. I explained it did NOT say what the interpretations said. He disagreed. I asked him to read it again. He said he knew what it said. I said, just read it, but clear your mind of what you wanted it to say. A bit of silence, then "OH S**T, it doesn't say what I wanted it to say."

"Can" is NOT prescriptive. It makes it allowed, not required. "Shall" in a reg means you HAVE to do it that way.

Words matter.

Eagerly awaiting @midlifeflyer 's response.

 

[Half Fast]

"Can" is NOT prescriptive. It makes it allowed, not required. "Shall" in a reg means you HAVE to do it that way.

Agreed.

But one might interpret that to mean that it has to be the type of exam that could be given in a written form. Some exams are oral, and involve lots of discussion, and they meander, with the examiner choosing which topics to dwell upon or where to probe deeper based on the student’s responses.

That style of exam cannot be given in a written form. It would therefore not meet this requirement.

An exam that can be in a written format must have a fixed number of defined questions which have specific answers. Now that sort of exam could be given orally as a series of Q & A, but it is an exam that can be written.

 

[midlifeflyer]

How much to you deal with Federal regs? How much do you know about how to properly read them?

Eagerly awaiting @midlifeflyer 's response.

I was wondering whether to respond at all. Is usually ignore silliness like that but I can't resist when people pull rank by touting their credentials.

Does ~40 years dealing with laws and regulations, more than half as financial institution regulatory compliance counsel and (since retirement from active practice) consultant and more than 18 in the aviation field count?

 

[Pinecone]

I was wondering whether to respond at all. Is usually ignore silliness like that but I can't resist when people pull rank by touting their credentials.

Does ~40 years dealing with laws and regulations, more than half as financial institution regulatory compliance counsel and (since retirement from active practice) consultant and more than 18 in the aviation field count?

Yes it does. So you should know these things. And how regs are read. The instance of the guy thinking it said what he wanted, when it did not, was based on an improper level if indenting.

Yes, that makes a HUGE difference in meaning.

 

[Half Fast]

"Can" is NOT prescriptive. It makes it allowed, not required. "Shall" in a reg means you HAVE to do it that way.

Perhaps regs are different. In my experience with gov't contracts and specifications, "can" is used to describe a capability. "Shall" is prescriptive, "may" is permissive.

With that useage, when we say the test can be written, it would mean that the nature of the test is such that it is capable of being administered in writing. See my post #44 above.

It's also been my experience, however, that many of the gov't people writing documents have little understanding of these nuances and frequently write things that are vague, misleading, open to a variety of interpretations, etc., and then they stomp their feet and insist upon what they wanted their confusing prose to mean.

 

[Pinecone]

Agreed

Especially to the last paragraph. Which is why I enjoyed beating them every time based on THEM not reading what was actually written.

But back to the original topic, if the reg says it “can be be administered written or one computer” it DOES NOT hAVE TO to actually be written or on a computer.

I read this is should be a series of specific questions with specific answers. Not just a random discussion

 

[Dry Creek]

The one I took was available through the booking app at our flight school (Flight Circle). It was written specifically for a towered airport (KDTO), so I asked my CFI about that. The response was that she would ask other questions and to ignore those specific questions. I re-wrote the test for her with uncontrolled field questions I gleaned from the other two flight schools I had been through. I made sure to cite my sources for each answer too. That seemed to impress her, but it's what I do for a living - research things and write evaluations, or write procedures, or guidelines.

ETA - the flight school just recently opened a satellite center at KGDJ.

And in the nuclear power field, "should" and "shall" have specific regulatory adherence requirements. "May" is too ambiguous and we avoid that conditional word.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

From NAFI:

"The student pilot must have completed a pre-solo knowledge test. Refer to § 61.87(b). A recommended pre-solo test is provided within Sporty’s Learn to Fly Course. At the conclusion of the test, the CFI must review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight. The test must address the student pilot’s knowledge of: (i) Applicable sections of Parts 61 and 91 (ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and (iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown"

Remember, in addition to the endorsement for solo flight, there is a required endorsement for the pre-solo knowledge test. Where I work (Part 61), our test is part of the private pilot binder a new student receives and the beginning of training. We encourage them to start working on it when they start pattern work. There are about three dozen questions and of course it has to be reviewed and corrected before solo.