B17 crash at Dallas.

eman1200 said:
still not with you at all. I don't care what his job is. cops/sheriffs/FAA/NTSB/etc folks also have a job to do. but when something tragic like this happens, most of those other people, who most likely have far less ties to the people involved, tend to show AN OUNCE of emotion, which this guy did not.
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You wouldn't like me. I had to deal with two kids and I was literally rubbing shoulders with these people just before. It's mind numbing and I'm sure I will cry at some point. I'm emotional, which means I should probably stop responding, but... yeah, it hits wrong.
 
dbahn said:
Pure speculation of course, but I'm wondering if the P-63 was just trying to turn inside of the B-17 and had an accelerated stall. It looks as if just prior to impact it was at rapidly increasing high angle of bank - maybe with no real option to exit the turn. Also, any attempt to pull up would just likely precipitate an accelerated stall.

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Yeah maybe…I just can’t imagine how as the P63 pilot you could lose track of a B17 under the belly/nose, as some have said.
 
Country Flier said:
Yeah maybe…I just can’t imagine how as the P63 pilot you could lose track of a B17 under the belly/nose, as some have said.
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Because his point of focus was the other fighter he was following. But he got way outside the other fighter’s turn, which was the causal factor.
 
RyanShort1 said:
You wouldn't like me. I had to deal with two kids and I was literally rubbing shoulders with these people just before. It's mind numbing and I'm sure I will cry at some point. I'm emotional, which means I should probably stop responding, but... yeah, it hits wrong.
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Most of us have seen nasty things and kept moving, but how you explain what just happened to a child I don't know. That was a particularly spectacular crash complete with fireball and raining parts from the sky. Just seems more horrible than a car or bus with multiple fatalities.

Very sorry for your and your family's experience, and absolutely for all the families involved. Nothing worse on the earth.
 
RyanShort1 said:
You wouldn't like me. I had to deal with two kids and I was literally rubbing shoulders with these people just before. It's mind numbing and I'm sure I will cry at some point. I'm emotional, which means I should probably stop responding, but... yeah, it hits wrong.
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Sorry man. I’m very disturbed by it and I’m 600 miles away.
 
Dana said:
I think he was seeing the ADSB track as a way to help figure out what happened, not that it would have helped avoid the accident.
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exactly. I was thinking (maybe?) or could just give some data to help determine the angle of approach, speeds, whatever. Not that it could have been avoided using ADSB!
 
Years ago, I was sitting in a session at Oshkosh where Scotty Crossfield was speaking. Someone asked him if he thought in the new administration (can't even remember which one it was at this point), if there would be more funding for things like the CAF. He issued an expletive and said something like "I'm tired of fighting WWII. If we took the money we spent on flying these relics we could send a man to the moon again. Put one in a museum and recycle the rest into canoes."
 
kyleb said:
Because his point of focus was the other fighter he was following. But he got way outside the other fighter’s turn, which was the causal factor.
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So he ignores the plane that can (did) kill him, and focuses on the one that can't (didn't)? Doesn't make sense.
 
Country Flier said:
Yeah maybe…I just can’t imagine how as the P63 pilot you could lose track of a B17 under the belly/nose, as some have said.
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I don't think it was ever his intention to join up on the B-17. It is sounding like he was in a separate pattern and for some unknown reason flew way wide. If so, his focus was likely on a another fighter to his left and he didn't notice the B-17 until it was too late.

Why he was so far wide/out of position is the big question.

That pattern looked like a true fur ball.
 
She had just swapped crews after the Tora! Tora! Tora! show, with a stunningly beautiful FINI flight for her long-term captain, who was not on board when this happened. It should have been such a good day.

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Previous images from Tora flight.

Next images seconds before disaster. So sad.

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Images Copyright by me.

R. I. P. Queen.
 
flyingron said:
Years ago, I was sitting in a session at Oshkosh where Scotty Crossfield was speaking. Someone asked him if he thought in the new administration (can't even remember which one it was at this point), if there would be more funding for things like the CAF. He issued an expletive and said something like "I'm tired of fighting WWII. If we took the money we spent on flying these relics we could send a man to the moon again. Put one in a museum and recycle the rest into canoes."
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Crossfield is not exactly a guy I'd take aviation advice from.....
 
RyanB said:
Wow, that’s just awful!

Yeah, seems pretty strange, as I’m not sure how the P-63 couldn’t see the B-17, but like always, it’s easy to armchair quarterback.
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Roll into a 60 degree bank and look down between your legs. What do you see?

Some LARGE blind areas in aircraft.
 
I'm waiting to find out if a friend was piloting the B-17.... :(
 
schmookeeg said:
I refused a request by a new plane owner to do some "gentlemanly formation flying" after lunch on Thursday and have felt bad about it, since I was the wet blanket -- but I didn't know the other party, and I haven't done formation work in years, so was not comfortable with it.

This makes me feel a bit better about that choice.

Rotten video. RIP.
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Good call.

A wise old pilot, who taught me to actually FLY a plane, gave me the advice to never fly formation with someone not properly trained. In his case, he was saying military trained. I am OK with a properly trained and qualified FAST formation pilot.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you've never flown formation, please be quiet, read and learn.
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To Fearless' point. Flying formation (and there are much better experts here than me), you focus on your lead. There is nothing else in your world. That's why when the Thunderbirds did their loop into the ground a bunch of years ago, the 5 (?) airplanes all impacted within spitting distance. The wingmen were following lead as they were supposed to. Lead messed up and they died. In this situation, the failure seems to have been that the P-63 DIDN'T do a good job of following the aircraft he was following (formating on). He absolutely should not have been looking for the B-17. He should have been locked on the aircraft he was following.
 
kyleb said:
To Fearless' point. Flying formation (and there are much better experts here than me), you focus on your lead. There is nothing else in your world. That's why when the Thunderbirds did their loop into the ground a bunch of years ago, the 5 (?) airplanes all impacted within spitting distance. The wingmen were following lead as they were supposed to. Lead messed up and they died. In this situation, the failure seems to have been that the P-63 DIDN'T do a good job of following the aircraft he was following (formating on). He absolutely should not have been looking for the B-17. He should have been locked on the aircraft he was following.
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Exactly. From what I understand, he should never have been in or near the bomber lane at all and likely because he was looking for his intended reference, he didn't realize how far out of position he had gotten.

Why such an experienced pilot was that far out of position is the big question in my opinion.
 
While there are formation training/qualifications to fly formation in shows, there is no requirement for non-formation flying.

I was one of a number of T-34s that came close to being involved in a multi plane mid-air at Sun n Fun.

At Sun n Fun, at the time, the L and O aircraft did flybys on the 500 foot show line, pulling up and crossing behind the crowd. T-6s did the 1000 foot line (runway). The fighters and bombers did the 1500 foot show line, with pull up for "downwind" at or below 800 feet. The T-34s had a race track angled 45 degrees to the runway at 1000 feet with the T-28s 90 degrees to the T-34s at 1500. GREAT show for the crowd. Lots of planes and always planes roaring by.

One of the fighter guys did not understand altimeter lag and that you cannot zoom to an altitude THEN roll and pull and not go above the altitude you started to maneuver. So, suddenly there is the underside of a fighter, belly up to a formation of 18 T-34s, close enough to see how dirty the belly was.

Pilot never saw us. And would not acknowledge that he screwed up and busted through his altitude.
 
kyleb said:
To Fearless' point. Flying formation (and there are much better experts here than me), you focus on your lead. There is nothing else in your world. That's why when the Thunderbirds did their loop into the ground a bunch of years ago, the 5 (?) airplanes all impacted within spitting distance. The wingmen were following lead as they were supposed to. Lead messed up and they died. In this situation, the failure seems to have been that the P-63 DIDN'T do a good job of following the aircraft he was following (formating on). He absolutely should not have been looking for the B-17. He should have been locked on the aircraft he was following.
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I have questions, but I won't be asking them here.
 
dbahn said:
maybe with no real option to exit the turn.
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If he did see the B-17, the way to recover from this is to roll out and pass behind and underneath the bomber. Increasing the bank and pulling it the absolute worst thing to do, as it makes the geometry worse since you’re now keeping your turn circle inside the other plane’s.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If he did see the B-17, the way to recover from this is to roll out and pass behind and underneath the bomber. Increasing the bank and pulling it the absolute worst thing to do, as it makes the geometry worse since you’re now keeping your turn circle inside the other plane’s.
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But depending on your background and training, it can be really tough to do the right thing because the view out the windshield is too ugly.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you've never flown formation, please be quiet, read and learn.
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I fly formation often...but I also don't feel my opinion is more important than yours, so I won't be telling you to be quiet...although it sounds like you probably could learn something as well.
 
It has been confirmed by Craig Hutain’s daughter that he was flying the P-63. Good guy, RIP
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Not going to even try to speculate. Horrible beyond words. R.I.P.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If he did see the B-17, the way to recover from this is to roll out and pass behind and underneath the bomber. Increasing the bank and pulling it the absolute worst thing to do, as it makes the geometry worse since you’re now keeping your turn circle inside the other plane’s.
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Of course, but you have to have time to do that. I'm thinking that by the time he saw the B-17 it was too late to do anything but to tighten the turn, not unlike Cory Lidle flying above the East River and turning too hard and too late instead of exiting the turn.

It seems obvious on the video that there were plenty of opportunities early in the maneuver to avoid a collision but for whatever reason that wasn't done, and I think the most likely explanation will boil down loss of visual contact. Again, it's clearly ALL speculation at this point.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The reason there were only 4 flying B-17s as of this morning is due to 9-0-9 and the insurance aftermath. The other airworthy B-17s were grounded by insurance.
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There were 9 in airworthy condition before his accident. Two are down for major maintenance, but will fly again. There are at least 3 more are being restored to airworthy condition now.
 
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