Cessna 150C vs 150D, where does the extra 100lbs come from? (A TC Question)

MarkH

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This is a type certificate question. To the best of my knowledge there is no structural difference between a Cessna 150C and a 150D. In fact, the rear window is less aerodynamic, so (in theory) the performance would be worse with the 150D.

But the 150D is rated for 1600lbs gross and the C only 1500.

In some other planes with similar airframes and different gross weights (on the same Type Certificate), modifications can be made to fit other models on the TC. (Examples include Luscombe 8A to 8E conversions and Ercoupe 415C/D conversions.). Or STCs that can increase gross based on different models in the same TC (ex. 1320 lbs gross STC for Ercoupe 415C).

My question is, with the early Cessna 150s being so similar to the 1600lb D+, what is keeping the later type certificate from being used as data to justify a 1600lb gross on the 150/A/B/C as is done on the Luscombes and Ercoupes?
 
The gross weight of the 150D (1964) had to be increased, because the new fuselage was heavier. If the gross weight remained at the previous 1500 lb, the already marginal useful load would have been decreased further. Thus the engineers and aerodynamicists were tasked with making it work at the higher weight and with the structural and aerodynamic issues presented by the new design. Look closely at the tails of the 150C (1963 model) and 150D (1964). The 150D (and all later models) have counterweights on the distal ends of the elevators and rudder. By contrast, the leading edges of the rudder and elevators of the "fastback" 150s were a straight line from root to tip.

cessna_150c.jpg

C-150A.jpg [Click to enlarge]

cessna_150d_04.jpg

C-150D.jpg [Click to enlarge]

Former Cessna aerodynamicist and test pilot William Thompson explained (Cessna - Wings for the World: The Single-Engine Development Story),

"To give the rather cramped C-150 cabin a feeling of spaciousness, our stylist, Richard TenEyck, and his company's designers developed a bold omni-vision concept in 1963 that caused consternation in several quarters of our engineering department. Our aerodynamicists feared a huge drag increase with the bluff afterbody-shape of the rear window and the resulting unfavorable juncture of the wing and fuselage. We expected a noticeable decrease in climb and speed performance, particularly with an associated increase in gross weight.

"The structures group was certain that a sizeable empty weight increase would be in the cards along with a drastic change in the natural frequency of the empennage with such a slender tailcone. The latter problem could possibly require much heavier elevator and rudder mass balance weights to preclude airframe flutter in dives. In fact, all of these fears were realized, for the gross weight had to be increased from 1500 to 1600 pounds, and this, in turn, reduced the already-marginal climb performance from a 15,600 foot to 12,650 foot service ceiling. The top speed was reduced by 2 mph even after much refinement of the aforementioned wing-fuselage juncture. The author recalls numerous delays in opening up the speed envelope while flutter analysts worked around the clock trying to qualify the airplane for a comfortable flutter-speed margin above the 162 mph red line speed."
 
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I was under the impression the tail was the same. Thank you @Pilawt.

I guess that explains why the TC was never used like the other airframes mentioned.
 
The Cessna Cardinal is a good example of the unintended consequences of aircraft design. What should be so hard about designing a sleeker, strutless 172?

In the early 1960s the 172 was still selling well, but the (comparatively) sleek new Cherokee was proving to be a hit. Somewhere in Cessna upper management it was decided that the 1967 172H would be the last year for the "clunky" strutted design, to be replaced with a modern new Model "172J" for 1968. The thinking likely went something like this:

First requirement for the 172J: No wing struts, so the competitors can't mock our old-fashioned look in their ads. That means a carry-through spar structure in the upper cabin. That's heavier than a strutted construction going out the gate. So where do we put the spar? It has to be at or near the thickest part of the wing. The low-wing guys have it easy; they just run it under the seats. But put a strutless wing on a 172, and the maximum airfoil thickness, and thus the spar carry-through, is right where the pilot's head is. So we have to somehow move that spar aft, where the bulge in the cabin ceiling will be out of the way. How to do that?

First, we can use one of those NACA 6-series "laminar flow" airfoils, like the Cherokees, Comanches and Mooneys. The maximum thickness is further aft than on the 172's old reliable 2412. So the 172J won't have the same slow flight, stall and short-field qualities as the strutted model. But hey, all the competitors' ads say "laminar flow" is faster. But we know that though it reduces drag some on something like a P-51 or maybe even a Centurion, it doesn't make much of a difference on a typical low-power bugsmasher with imprecise production tolerances and oilcanning, lightweight skins. But it gives us the cabin packaging we need, so we use it.

Next we have to move that wing as far aft as we can, resulting in a forward CG of only 5% of mean aerodynamic chord, much further forward than a legacy 172. Our customers like big flaps, so we're gonna need a LOT of pitch authority to land tail-low with full flap and that forward CG. That means a long tail arm (more weight) and a stabilator (more weight and complexity, not to mention different handling qualities).

This thing is starting to take shape, and it looks slick. It's obviously going to be much different from the old 172, so the model number gets changed to 177.

Now with the wing (and fuel tanks) so low and so far aft, we can't count on gravity to deliver adequate fuel pressure to the engine in extreme nose-up attitudes. So add engine-driven and auxiliary electric fuel pumps and a header tank (more weight and complexity).

Flight tests show we need more lateral stability, so make the vertical tail taller (more weight).

The weight is adding up alarmingly, so we choose to go with thinner skins and lighter components in places. Still, it's about 150 pounds heavier than a 172H. And it's more expensive and labor-intensive to build than a 172. But 2,000 150 hp O-320-E2As have already been delivered from Lycoming, with an option for 2,000 more, so by cracky, we're gonna use 'em. To hedge our bet, though, we'll keep the strutted 172 line going and convert that old relic to the Lycoming engine, too.

And the rest is history.
 
@Pilawt Jeff, you bring us a wealth of cool information. Thank you!

Was there ever a similar change in flap settings on the 150 like there was on the 172 (going from 40 degrees max to 30 degrees max)? Or was that the 152 where that changed?

On the 172, that resulted in an increase in gross weight, since a full-flap go-around was the limiting factor.
 
They went to 30deg on the 152 but never on the 150
Thompson's book says only that the reduction to 30° on the 152 "was related to a power effect on flying qualities." But the 152's MGW was 70 pounds heavier, and the heavier Lycoming engine, mounted further forward, moved CG forward by half an inch. I presume that was a major factor.
 
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