Supply chain and Overhauls. Who is affected and how?

John Spartan

John Spartan

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Talking with my CFI and he mentioned rebuilds are taking months due to parts shortages. Is anyone else seeing this? Which parts? How long is the delay?
 
Yes
A wide variety of parts from basic internals to accessories.
TWO YEARS for my engine, so far
(some of that is overhauler incompetence)
 
Yeah, just getting a new cylinder these days depending on make/model can be 6-8 months. Quote from Air Power's website "Various cylinders for Lycoming engines are under an industry wide shortage. Air Power currently has thousands on order with lead times ranging from 30 days to 12 months." Most everything is backordered these days, even basic consumables like oil filters. Recent quote on fuel bladders was 3-4 months.
 
When I returned the core for my IO-550C in January, Western Skyways told me they had 14 clients waiting on my serviceable crankshaft. So if my crank didn't make, it would have meant 14 people stuck with no parts. My 2,300 hour crank made limits, luckily for them. No idea about the onward dominoes though.

I understand things have gotten more acute since then.
 
Holy frijole. These aren’t standard consumable items so that is quite a shock. So low lead fuel push seems like a smaller issue than just having an overhaul completed. I can understand some of the electronics being hard to source with the chip issues happening but cylinders and cranks and oil filters?
 
TCABM said:
Welcome to the party, pal. Don’t forget A&P labor shortages, too.
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Quite the party at that. So buying a plane you can forget about a timely engine rebuild to start your ownership. That sucks. Cannot imagine this will improve in the next 24 months either.
 
John Spartan said:
Quite the party at that. So buying a plane you can forget about a timely engine rebuild to start your ownership. That sucks. Cannot imagine this will improve in the next 24 months either.
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It will also raise the prices of aircraft with recently overhauled engines.
 
3393RP said:
It will also raise the prices of aircraft with recently overhauled engines.
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looks like it already has. There are some crazy high priced planes out there both overhauled and run out.
 
My Continental O-300 took 6 months for a certified overhaul. Price was higher than when T$ was in charge.
 
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texasclouds said:
My Continental O-300 took 6 months for a certified overhaul. Price was higher that when T$ was in charge.
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Parked for 6 months? Makes one wonder how many are flying birds that are marginally airworthy
 
I heard all manufacturers have trouble with production, no exceptions. It’s caused by the pandemic’s aftereffects; raw material shortages, worker shortages. For Lycoming the biggest problem is cylinders, especially the ones for a O-235 and some of the 360’s. Many overhaul shops are trying to reuse as much of those cylinders as possible. You get your old cylinders honed for the same price as you would normally get new ones. I think turn around time should still be less then 1 month though, given you don’t have a cracked case. If you are looking for a good shop that still uses new cylinders and doesn’t take 6 months for an overhaul, I would recommend Loma-Air.
 
John Spartan said:
looks like it already has. There are some crazy high priced planes out there both overhauled and run out.
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I should have said "It will further raise the prices of aircraft with recently overhauled engines."
 
I'm expecting a Factory Reman sometime in the next month or so. I've received three emails moving delivery 1-2 weeks later. I ordered it one year ago.
 
I guess I got lucky, ordered a lycoming factory rebuilt 0-320 Dec 2019. Was told it would be 7-9 weeks, it took 12 weeks to get it. It didn't matter to me since I was still flying my old engine.
My hangar neighbor waited for about a year to get a camshaft for his 0-300 engine. His plane was down for 18 months waiting on the shop and parts.
 
how far in advance can one buy a reman before you have to send back the core. with prices going up, if you thought you needed it in the next two years, you could put the crate in your dry garage with dessicant plugs and then do the swap in a couple of winters when your current one dies. It's also almost worth having a cylinder on hand (either new or O/H) to avoid a long downtime over a 2,000 part
 
MIFlyer said:
how far in advance can one buy a reman before you have to send back the core. with prices going up, if you thought you needed it in the next two years, you could put the crate in your dry garage with dessicant plugs and then do the swap in a couple of winters when your current one dies. It's also almost worth having a cylinder on hand (either new or O/H) to avoid a long downtime over a 2,000 part
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Skyways wanted mine back within 60 days of receiving my new motor. I don't know CMI's policies, but my transaction was similar to a reman/new motor, in that I asked them to build me up an exchange motor and ship it to me in advance of my core.

Despite the 14 toe-tappers, Skyways was patient. I think we shot it back in ~75 days in the end.
 
schmookeeg said:
Skyways wanted mine back within 60 days of receiving my new motor. I don't know CMI's policies, but my transaction was similar to a reman/new motor, in that I asked them to build me up an exchange motor and ship it to me in advance of my core.

Despite the 14 toe-tappers, Skyways was patient. I think we shot it back in ~75 days in the end.
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OK, so my plan wouldn't work. With CMI, how many engines are in transit each way. I figure if cylinder failures start happening at 50 hours, there's a real risk you could have your core on the truck back to them, one in the airframe, and needing another replacement before they recieve the first core. /snark at least with lycomings, the rusted cams take awhile to happen vs the burnt valves on CMI.
 
MIFlyer said:
OK, so my plan wouldn't work. With CMI, how many engines are in transit each way. I figure if cylinder failures start happening at 50 hours, there's a real risk you could have your core on the truck back to them, one in the airframe, and needing another replacement before they recieve the first core. /snark at least with lycomings, the rusted cams take awhile to happen vs the burnt valves on CMI.
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When I was at ATP flight school, they had a maintenance base at KCRG and I remarked they had 2 or 3 new Lyc engines on the shelf ready to transplant. I wonder if there's some way to carry inventory without splashing out on a new motor. Maybe the trick is finding some junk core out of a wrecked plane and sending that, then pickling your new reman

I was offered $5K over my core value for my skyways motor (so, $23k for a runout 550) from an engine-building competitor. I don't feel bad for not taking the deal, but cores seem to have ... unusual value right now, so my plan might not work. I assume there's some roach motor that Dodson or one of those can't get rid of that would still make core credit with CMI... maybe. :)
 
I bought a Lycoming rebuilt (zero-time) IO360 in November, 2020. It was delivered in February, 2021 (after the delivery date slipped about a month in several installments). I had my engine off the mount long before the new one was delivered, and all of the accessories (oil cooler, prop governor) were back from overhaul. So reinstallation after the engine arrived took about 5 days (I did the labor with my A&P/IA supervising). I had considered keeping the old core and rebuilding it myself with my A&P, then pickling it and keeping it as a ready spare, but the $17,500 core charge disabused me of that notion. If they had charged only $5-7,000, I would have probably done it.
 
Now the million dollar question. Are Rotax owners fairing better??
 
Hmm, with 1 year waits for engines, I would if there is a market for rental engines? :D
 
NavAir said:
I bought a Lycoming rebuilt (zero-time) IO360 in November, 2020. It was delivered in February, 2021 (after the delivery date slipped about a month in several installments). I had my engine off the mount long before the new one was delivered, and all of the accessories (oil cooler, prop governor) were back from overhaul. So reinstallation after the engine arrived took about 5 days (I did the labor with my A&P/IA supervising). I had considered keeping the old core and rebuilding it myself with my A&P, then pickling it and keeping it as a ready spare, but the $17,500 core charge disabused me of that notion. If they had charged only $5-7,000, I would have probably done it.
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I almost thought this was one of my posts when I started to read it.
Like in my post above I also got my rebuilt motor from lycoming in a reasonable amount of time in the early covid days.
Only I put my old engine back together after pulling cylinders to check/cleaning the rings and checking the camshaft so I could keep flying while waiting for the new engine to arrive.
Turned out once I cleaned up the original pistons and rings and put it back together it ran great. Leak down numbers went up and oil usage went down. I experienced buyers remorse by ordering the new engine since my old one was running so well.
I sat on the new engine for 2+ months until I did the swap. I was able to fly my old engine for another 99 hours until I had to swap it so I could get my core engine back to lycoming.
In the previous year I had already replaced oil, fuel, scat hoses. And baffling, starter, alternator and more. So all that was fresh and I was able to do the engine swap in 5 days myself with my IA supervision. I flew it on the 6th day with the new engine. That was July 2020 and it now has 470 some hours on it, the new engine has been flawless.
I would have liked to have kept my old engine also but for $16000. I could not afford to keep it. I got it back to lycoming with a week to spare under 90 days and did receive full credit for it. That's my story...
 
John Spartan said:
Now the million dollar question. Are Rotax owners fairing better??
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I don’t think so, I know Rotax is facing the same supply issues. The roots of this problem run deep, in fact, it’s not only general aviation, it’s every sector that requires a lot of raw materials.
 
Clip4 said:
This is what you get guys when outsourcing to China and crap wages does not encourage anyone to get vocational training as machinists. It is going to be the new normal for the next decade.
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Lycoming has realized outsourcing isn’t the best way to go. It started with lots of quality issues, now they are trying to bring the entire manufacturing process in house again, that’s another reason for the huge delay on so many parts.
 
Pinecone said:
Hmm, with 1 year waits for engines, I would if there is a market for rental engines? :D
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some shops offer ready to go engines that have been overhauled, you receive a zero timed engine immediately, and you have to pay based on the condition of the core you bring in. It’s more expensive than an overhaul of your own engine off course, but if you want the least possible downtime, that’s the way to go, unless you have a spare engine of your own to swap out.
 
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