Man up or not?

SixPapaCharlie said:
I would buy. These planes are depreciated assets. Worst case scenario, you find out you are struggling to afford it, and you sell it.
You will likely know if you can handle it within a year and if you sell, you will probably get somewhere around what you paid for it.
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I kind of think this too. I've build it all out on spreadsheets for years, and am torn between tying up money that doesn't make me money AND keeping up with a plane by myself, but I feel like I could do it.
 
WDD said:
A few thoughts:

1) You are now a "little cash poor" but are talking about buying a vacation home and a plane. As you're not going to pay cash for another home, you'll have a cash sucking payment every month on that. And then you want to add an airplane on that?

2) You're not going to get a six seater for $70k.

3) Children actually take more time when they get older, not less (until they leave for college or job when they graduate).

4) Stay in the club and get your IR for now.
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Let me address this, as you're doing a good service to the average poster coming in here.

1. I'm cash poor because I keep investing in equities and real estate, not because I don't make enough and save money. I also mischaracterized the 'vacation home'. It would actually be a rental home, in a vacation market (that we would 1031 one of our existing rental houses to pay for). This would be a 35K/year improvement in my cash flow. We would have deminimis personal usage, but I expect I'd need to go down a couple times a year to fix things on the house too. The comment comes from a guy who's been over 6 figures for 20 years yet has never been able to make the math work to buy a new car, so puting a lot of money into any asset that doens't generate money goes against my habits.

2. OK, I will, but I understand this is typically not true.

3. I take this advice and perspective, our kids go with us on all these trips, so I'm not saying that airplane stuff is without kids, in fact, 90% of my flying (except for currency/training) is with the family.

4. I understand that this is the safest option and that when i'm dead in 20 years, my estate will be stoked that I made the choice not to buy.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
What’s the most you can lose if you take the “once in a lifetime” option, and can you afford that loss financially? Buy if you can. You can always take a step back if you want. Live life.
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I could write off the 120k that I think year one would cost. It would suck, but yeah.
 
In any event - get your IR before you buy.
 
MIFlyer said:
.. a little cash poor ...
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Isn’t the way to charge in to sole ownership in my opinion since year 1 seems be a high cost year.

Besides, 6-9 months from now things may look a whole lot different and if auto and real estate markets are any kind of canary in coal mine, cash could come in very handy for those who are patient.

As for spontaneity, I guess it’s kind of like being married; sooner or later you have to plan the spontaneity.

ETA: ignore everything above; you’ve already decided what you’re going to do and are just looking for positive reinforcement. I should have just deleted this post.
 
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If you have actually already made up your mind and are just looking to justify it, let me offer another angle to help with that. What kind of personality do you have? Are you frequently the outlier in group decisions? Do you like sharing your stuff? I'll admit to having that negative trait. I tend to keep a short leash on my things: car, tools, airplane, etc.

I was in a club for 8 years, and made it work because I had to. But, I was in the minority on seemingly every decision. Had multiple trips cut short because of scheduling. We once got a new interior that lasted a whole two weeks before there was a huge pen mark on the side panel. It was cheap flying, but a giant aggravation otherwise.

I bought my plane as soon as I could make it work and I love it. I know two people I could be in a happy partnership with. One lives 1500 mi away and the other one isn't a pilot, so sole ownership it is!
 
ServoB17 said:
If you have actually already made up your mind and are just looking to justify it, let me offer another angle to help with that. What kind of personality do you have? Are you frequently the outlier in group decisions? Do you like sharing your stuff? I'll admit to having that negative trait. I tend to keep a short leash on my things: car, tools, airplane, etc.

I was in a club for 8 years, and made it work because I had to. But, I was in the minority on seemingly every decision. Had multiple trips cut short because of scheduling. We once got a new interior that lasted a whole two weeks before there was a huge pen mark on the side panel. It was cheap flying, but a giant aggravation otherwise.

I bought my plane as soon as I could make it work and I love it. I know two people I could be in a happy partnership with. One lives 1500 mi away and the other one isn't a pilot, so sole ownership it is!
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Thank you for sharing. I’m fairly flexible as long as we’re on the same page, but the lack of flexibility is what scares me about club and partnership.


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If you are looking at a sub $70K twin, you need a REALLY good pre-buy, and be ready to walk away.

Even if the engines have been gone over from the outside, there may be issues. And you are looking at possibly over $70K EACH if you need new engines.
 
Pinecone said:
If you are looking at a sub $70K twin, you need a REALLY good pre-buy, and be ready to walk away.

Even if the engines have been gone over from the outside, there may be issues. And you are looking at possibly over $70K EACH if you need new engines.
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Thanks, yes, I'm very aware and scared of the MX. This is, in fact, my primary fear of ownership.
 
cowtowner said:
You are building a spec house in this market and worried about buying a plane?

You only live once. Buy the plane
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LOL, well, yes, but the plane is a guaranteed economic loser whereas the spec house should be a good investment.
 
MIFlyer said:
This is getting to the heart of it. My *time* is the toughest commodity right now, particularly since I live 25 minutes from the airport, so it's a little bit of a thing to go to the plane. I do feel like I would integrate it into my life a bit (regular sunday fly out breakfast with my parents that live 100 miles away/etc). lots of excuses for little flights like that. I own 3 old trucks (early 70's), so I kind of understand that I'll have a latch/switch/piece of weatherstripping to adjust everytime I see the plane.
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I know people who own airplanes and love them and people who no longer do. You have to love flying small planes for it to make any sense. But after that, the thing that divides the happy owners from everyone else is exactly this: Their decisions are more often constrained by available time than by available money. When things go according to plan, airplanes convert money into time.
 
I'm in a similar situation and I decided to buy.
I don't like renting and never seemed to be able to get the time I wanted and overnight (or longer) in a rental gets stupid expensive very quickly.
Now I can go fly any time I want which is awesome.


That being said, given the choice I would buy into a partnership with 1-3 other people.
I'm in a rural area and didn't really have that choice without driving 45+ minutes away to get to the plane (also an issue for you, 25 min isn't a lot but it's far enough to kill the weekday "eh maybe I'll go buzz the pattern")

A partnership (or very small club) gives you the best of all worlds, split costs and the time sharing isn't usually a problem. Most of the time if you just want to go fly around one of them will go with you as a safety pilot as well if you're friends.

It's already been said but you're not going to get much 6 seater for 70k. If you've already got a buddy deal that helps a lot because you're already in the positive as far as equity goes.
The big expense isn't buying the plane it's maintenance, which can be large costs all at once so be prepared. You may get 5 years, you may get 10, you may get 2 days before that 50k engine comes due.
 
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MIFlyer said:
I hated to "like" that one Rusty...
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I hated typing it.

Here's the deal on maint.

Who changes oil on your car today? just curious but related.

What's the impact of an unforseen $3k-5k expense to you? (i.e. an expensive annual, a cracked trunnion, etc.)

Is the airplane going to sit, or are you going to come up with the funds and fix it, and move on, knowing you won't need to fix "that" again?

What's the impact of your mechanic advising you that the engine is making metal and advises an overhaul?

Is the airplane going to sit (for how long?), or are you going to find a healthy 5-digit funding from somewhere, and move along knowing you have a new engine?

Are you willing/able to learn about an airplane and mechanicals, and be willing to owner-assist on things, or are you expecting your checkbook to solve any and all issues from lightbulb changes to gas and parts/labor?
 
Rgbeard said:
I hated typing it.

Here's the deal on maint.

Who changes oil on your car today? just curious but related.
I change all my oils and do maintenance and restoration. Last winter I swapped transmission and engine on one of my Scouts (went from auto to manual and 304 to 392), switched to electronic ignition, upgraded to a GM style HO charging system with new shunt to bypass factory dash ammeter, wire wheeled the whole underside and painted it, changed shocks, installed new radiator, added a winch and winch bumper and a few other things.

What's the impact of an unforseen $3k-5k expense to you? (i.e. an expensive annual, a cracked trunnion, etc.)
Yeah, that's fine. 20k is less fine, but I'd write the check. 3-5k is fine

Is the airplane going to sit, or are you going to come up with the funds and fix it, and move on, knowing you won't need to fix "that" again?
Fix it asap, my cost per day for it to sit is so high that I'd keep it moving.

What's the impact of your mechanic advising you that the engine is making metal and advises an overhaul?
I plan to source a spare engine and possible 1-2 cyclinders to keep in my garage along with fuel pumps, alternators and starters, but it may take a year or two to find bargains on these (bargain price, but good NOS or OH condition)

Is the airplane going to sit (for how long?), or are you going to find a healthy 5-digit funding from somewhere, and move along knowing you have a new engine?
I'd keep it moving. It's "better" if it can wait a couple of years or longer to do this, but even if it does it in the first year, I could resolve it and keep moving.

Are you willing/able to learn about an airplane and mechanicals, and be willing to owner-assist on things, or are you expecting your checkbook to solve any and all issues from lightbulb changes to gas and parts/labor?
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Yes, I plan to get all the service manuals and parts books. Some days, I'd like to diagnose issues using a decision tree and help from mentor owners of the same type, other times I can get my hands dirty (ie, remove dead alternator and then get IA to approve/inspect me installing new alternator) Owner assisted annual scares me, as taking a week out to do that is tough, but if that's what has to happen, I will. I have a good shop that does that annuals for an associates plane of the same type that I would likely use for major projects. (annuals/etc), I'd have to find someone on field for the small stuff that leaves you AOG. I'm fine with oil changes/light bulbs/etc.
 
MIFlyer said:
Yes, I plan to get all the service manuals and parts books. Some days, I'd like to diagnose issues using a decision tree and help from mentor owners of the same type, other times I can get my hands dirty (ie, remove dead alternator and then get IA to approve/inspect me installing new alternator) Owner assisted annual scares me, as taking a week out to do that is tough, but if that's what has to happen, I will. I have a good shop that does that annuals for an associates plane of the same type that I would likely use for major projects. (annuals/etc), I'd have to find someone on field for the small stuff that leaves you AOG. I'm fine with oil changes/light bulbs/etc.
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The evening before the annual begins, you go to the hangar, put the plane on jacks, remove all the inspection panels and cowlings, as applicable for your beast.

Saves you hours and you learn. No time off work needed.
 
MIFlyer said:
Owner assisted annual scares me, as taking a week out to do that is tough, but if that's what has to happen, I will.
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Much depends on whether you want to witness the actual inspection.

For my last annual, I spent a couple of mornings getting the plane opened up: inspection covers opened, seats out, floorboards removed, cowling off, etc. Then I took care of all the required lubrication. The plane wasn't due for an oil change (only 15 hours on the oil) so we deferred that, otherwise I would have done the oil change.

My IA started the inspection in the late afternoon of a Thursday, finished up Friday morning. I was there to watch and be a gofer and an extra set of hands, but I didn't have to do that. I came back on Sat morning and finished up closing the plane, reinstalling seats, etc.

If you wished, you could do much the same thing, opening and closing the plane, changing the oil, whatever, at your own convenience ahead of the inspection, then take care of buttoning up afterward. This really does save the inspector a LOT of time. The IA does his thing on his own schedule, and you're there or not as your schedule permits.

I also took the time to download all the ADs, located them in the logs, and annotated which ones were recurring and when they were due. For the couple that were due to be completed at this inspection, I pulled down all the relevant service bulletins and related info. This also saved my inspector quite a bit of time, and saving him time saved me money.

Of course, this assumes that you have a hangar and a reasonably complete set of tools therein.
 
Just another thing to be aware of, not all A&Ps will let you do any of the work.
If they are super busy and cant fit anything else into their schedule they are inclined to let you take stuff apart etc, but if not you're literally just taking money out of their pockets by doing the work yourself so don't count on just any A&P saying "sure thing you can help".
 
Justin Brady said:
Just another thing to be aware of, not all A&Ps will let you do any of the work.
If they are super busy and cant fit anything else into their schedule they are inclined to let you take stuff apart etc, but if not you're literally just taking money out of their pockets by doing the work yourself so don't count on just any A&P saying "sure thing you can help".
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I couldnt find an AP near me that would do that or let me. It was a drop off and pick up months later annuals each year.
 
charheep said:
I couldnt find an AP near me that would do that or let me. It was a drop off and pick up months later annuals each year.
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I think that's the norm.
Spending 4 hours at $100+ per hour removing and installing screws, seats, interior panels etc is easy money, not sure why an A&P would let someone else do that part if they aren't 100% booked up. Doesn't make financial sense.
 
An airplane is always watching you, waiting for its chance to reach into your pocket and pull out $25,000 or more. If you can do that without worrying, buy it. If $12,500 sounds a whole lot better, get one partner. Keep adding partners until the number gets down to something that doesn't hurt.

As someone said, "never buy an airplane you can't afford to love."
 
First thing's first: get your instrument rating.
 
charheep said:
What about learning the IR in the plane you own? My instructor said train in the plane you have. Just wondering how off base he is.
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That's been the advice I've heard too. While I can see getting a private or multi rating in a simple rental, I don't understand the benefit of getting IR in a rental, vs the plane you'll be handling in the soup to really get your flows, power levels, emergency procedures, etc nailed down on. I mean, sure, you'll save on insurance, but who GAF vs waiting another year or two to get your IR.
 
charheep said:
What about learning the IR in the plane you own? My instructor said train in the plane you have. Just wondering how off base he is.
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Actually he's spot-on.

Personally I see no need to own an airplane outright unless you have a pile of money you can set fire to and not miss. If you're talking $22,000 a year for 50 hours, that's $440 an hour. That's expensive for a single-engine retract. I would see how often you truly couldn't make the flights you want to make with your club, or at least going into the partnership you mention. We have 25 members in our club (two airplanes), and maybe half of them fly.

I tend to think if you're wondering if you can afford a plane, the answer is no. Personally it would have to be an absolute no-questions-asked yes to actually do it. You could own the plane for a week and get a $25,000 maintenance bill (if the engine just happens to go).

All depends on your personal situation. But your instructor is correct. I have the IR and would want it for the type of flying you want to do (particularly in that area).
 
charheep said:
What about learning the IR in the plane you own? My instructor said train in the plane you have. Just wondering how off base he is.
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Not off base.
I did half of my instrument in a rental then bought my Beech, I definitely feel like I went backward on instrument proficiency just because everything is different from a 172 to a bonanza.

That being said its not that hard of a transition just a few more hours of reorienting yourself in a different plane.
No different than upgrading or renting in the future with an instrument rating, the goal is to learn the skills not the plane.
 
Justin Brady said:
Not off base.
I did half of my instrument in a rental then bought my Beech, I definitely feel like I went backward on instrument proficiency just because everything is different from a 172 to a bonanza.

That being said its not that hard of a transition just a few more hours of reorienting yourself in a different plane.
No different than upgrading or renting in the future with an instrument rating, the goal is to learn the skills not the plane.
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That's a good perspective. If I'm looking at a high number of required dual hours, it seems like a no brainer to just work a bunch on the insturment training and experiences with the instructor once you've covered the basic proficiency with the plane. It'd be pretty easy to see how you'd fly off 25 hours, productively between "familiarization" and then 15-20 hours of your IR.

Now, need to get the boss on board and see if I can get a "yes" on insurance, even if it's liability only.
 
Rgbeard said:
The evening before the annual begins, you go to the hangar, put the plane on jacks, remove all the inspection panels and cowlings, as applicable for your beast.

Saves you hours and you learn. No time off work needed.
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Talked to the SWMBO. She is hesitant with the house going on, but supportive if the financial picture works out. Found some cool options with seller that will reduce my OOP in year 1, my most critical financial year.
 
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Hmm, insurance may be the deal killer. Still working on it, but just FYI, Avemco won't even write me until I'm 500TT and 100 MEL. That's a tough pill. Need to get to 5pm so I can have a beverage of choice and get past this temporary setback.
 
MIFlyer said:
Hmm, insurance may be the deal killer. Still working on it, but just FYI, Avemco won't even write me until I'm 500TT and 100 MEL. That's a tough pill. Need to get to 5pm so I can have a beverage of choice and get past this temporary setback.
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Talk to a broker. When I got my multi and a 310, I had swallowed the tough pill of a higher than desired premium, but then I got a surprise e-mail from my broker, basically saying: "Hey, remember that one company that I said probably wouldn't even quote you? Well, I gave them a try anyhow, and they just came back with a quote that requires less time in type and about half the premium." Airplane insurance is a "make them tell you no" scenario. Keep your chin up, especially when you're drinking said beverage of choice.
 
iamtheari said:
Talk to a broker. When I got my multi and a 310, I had swallowed the tough pill of a higher than desired premium, but then I got a surprise e-mail from my broker, basically saying: "Hey, remember that one company that I said probably wouldn't even quote you? Well, I gave them a try anyhow, and they just came back with a quote that requires less time in type and about half the premium." Airplane insurance is a "make them tell you no" scenario. Keep your chin up, especially when you're drinking said beverage of choice.
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Thank you. I will do that. I'm happy to take pretty onerous restrictions if needed (35 hours dual/etc) as I would use any extra dual time to chip away at IR anyway.
 
Do you need insurance? Can you self-insure, or are you getting a loan for the plane?
 
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