Flew into Class C without ADS-B Out

A

ADS-B Slacker

Guest
This has been a while ago and I never heard from anyone, but I thought I'd write about it here to read some opinions or to learn what others might have done.

My plane is not equipped with ADS-B out. I was on a cross country flight to an airport that was just outside of Class C airspace. I had flight following the entire way. As I was getting closer to my destination airport, I was handed off to approach of the class C. The controller cleared me base for a three mile final at my destination airport, however as I was still too high, that would have put me right into class C. I informed the controller that I do not have ADS-B out and would have to fly straight for a little longer, join downwind and by then lose enough altitude so that class C wouldn't be entered. He came back and said it's fine, I can go on long base anyways right away and cleared me into class C. He mentioned towers ahead (which I knew about and planned on flying around them) and that's why he told me to turn towards the class C. So, I ended up in class C airspace with no ADS-B out for a grand total of maybe 3-4 minutes. As soon as I dipped below class C, the controller came back and told me to switch to the airport's CTAF.

Again, this happened about six months ago. I never heard from anyone so I assume all is fine. What is the policy in this situation though? Can a controller allow flight into class C without ADS-B out? Did he maybe not get it that I don't have ADS-B out? Would the FAA get him in trouble for clearing me into class C or me for flying in class C without ADS-B? What would you have done?
 
ADS-B Slacker said:
This has been a while ago and I never heard from anyone, but I thought I'd write about it here to read some opinions or to learn what others might have done.

My plane is not equipped with ADS-B out. I was on a cross country flight to an airport that was just outside of Class C airspace. I had flight following the entire way. As I was getting closer to my destination airport, I was handed off to approach of the class C. The controller cleared me base for a three mile final at my destination airport, however as I was still too high, that would have put me right into class C. I informed the controller that I do not have ADS-B out and would have to fly straight for a little longer, join downwind and by then lose enough altitude so that class C wouldn't be entered. He came back and said it's fine, I can go on long base anyways right away and cleared me into class C. He mentioned towers ahead (which I knew about and planned on flying around them) and that's why he told me to turn towards the class C. So, I ended up in class C airspace with no ADS-B out for a grand total of maybe 3-4 minutes. As soon as I dipped below class C, the controller came back and told me to switch to the airport's CTAF.

Again, this happened about six months ago. I never heard from anyone so I assume all is fine. What is the policy in this situation though? Can a controller allow flight into class C without ADS-B out? Did he maybe not get it that I don't have ADS-B out? Would the FAA get him in trouble for clearing me into class C or me for flying in class C without ADS-B? What would you have done?
Click to expand...
You was authorized

§ 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out
equipment and use.
(a) After January 1, 2020, unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that

EDIT: It’s 91.225 (d), not (a) that refers to Class C. Read on.
 
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luvflyin said:
You was authorized

§ 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out
equipment and use.
(a) After January 1, 2020, unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that -
Click to expand...

Your quote says Class A? OP is asking about Class C
 
ADS-B Slacker said:
This has been a while ago and I never heard from anyone, but I thought I'd write about it here to read some opinions or to learn what others might have done.

My plane is not equipped with ADS-B out. I was on a cross country flight to an airport that was just outside of Class C airspace. I had flight following the entire way. As I was getting closer to my destination airport, I was handed off to approach of the class C. The controller cleared me base for a three mile final at my destination airport, however as I was still too high, that would have put me right into class C. I informed the controller that I do not have ADS-B out and would have to fly straight for a little longer, join downwind and by then lose enough altitude so that class C wouldn't be entered. He came back and said it's fine, I can go on long base anyways right away and cleared me into class C. He mentioned towers ahead (which I knew about and planned on flying around them) and that's why he told me to turn towards the class C. So, I ended up in class C airspace with no ADS-B out for a grand total of maybe 3-4 minutes. As soon as I dipped below class C, the controller came back and told me to switch to the airport's CTAF.

Again, this happened about six months ago. I never heard from anyone so I assume all is fine. What is the policy in this situation though? Can a controller allow flight into class C without ADS-B out? Did he maybe not get it that I don't have ADS-B out? Would the FAA get him in trouble for clearing me into class C or me for flying in class C without ADS-B? What would you have done?
Click to expand...

You mentioned below Class C, however the Mode C ADSB requirement is within the Class B or C veil, that means at all altitudes within the circle drawn around the Class B or Class C airspace.

You can obtain an exemption or permission to fly in the Mode C veil without ADSB, and since you informed ATC prior to, I would think it is ok. I do not think the FAA is out there to find violations of the past, usually there is only a problem if someone complained, you ****ed off ATC, or there was an accident and then everything is looked into.
 
mandm said:
Your quote says Class A? OP is asking about Class C
Click to expand...
Oops. Go down to 91.225 (d)

(d) After January 1, 2020, except as prohibited in paragraph (i)(2) of this section or unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the following airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that meets the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Class B and Class C airspace areas;
 
Why do you think you would hear anything. Controller was informed, controller told you to continue.
 
mandm said:
You mentioned below Class C, however the Mode C ADSB requirement is within the Class B or C veil, that means at all altitudes within the circle drawn around the Class B or Class C airspace.

You can obtain an exemption or permission to fly in the Mode C veil without ADSB, and since you informed ATC prior to, I would think it is ok. I do not think the FAA is out there to find violations of the past, usually there is only a problem if someone complained, you ****ed off ATC, or there was an accident and then everything is looked into.
Click to expand...

my understanding is you can fly under a class c shelf without adsb. Maybe I’m wrong…
 
EdFred said:
Yes, but not over.
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ok cool- I got it right. I have my dog tracking collar on the ok’d 140 anyway- primarily to fly into GRR to get my club plane.

actually was down at your aeropuerto a couple weeks ago. Ran another club member down from GRR to Hastings to get the bird back from Todd.
 
Huckster79 said:
ok cool- I got it right. I have my dog tracking collar on the ok’d 140 anyway- primarily to fly into GRR to get my club plane.

actually was down at your aeropuerto a couple weeks ago. Ran another club member down from GRR to Hastings to get the bird back from Todd.
Click to expand...

I might be up to yours tonight or tomorrow to fuel up for the cheaper fuel.
 
unsafervguy said:
one additional piece to that, if the class C lies within a mode c veil, then it is required. IE a class C withing the mode C veil of a class B airport. like KFLL.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Chicago Midway would be the same. Although, you be busting the requirement before you got under the Class C shelf of either FLL or MDW.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, Chicago Midway would be the same. Although, you be busting the requirement before you got under the Class C shelf of either FLL or MDW.
Click to expand...
an interesting one is KSRQ, only the north end of the class c is under the mode c ring.
 
unsafervguy said:
one additional piece to that, if the class C lies within a mode c veil, then it is required. IE a class C withing the mode C veil of a class B airport. like KFLL.
Click to expand...
The additional piece is that each requirement is an independent box. Within the mode C veil requires ADS-B out. I would expect the existence of Class G, E, D, C, or B within the veil to remove it.
Huckster79 said:
my understanding is you can fly under a class c shelf without adsb. Maybe I’m wrong…
Click to expand...
Same thing. Yes, the area below Class C is not included in the ADS-B requirement but operation within the mode C veil is.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
The additional piece is that each requirement is an independent box. Within the mode C veil requires ADS-B out. I would expect the existence of Class G, E, D, C, or B within the veil to remove it.

Same thing. Yes, the area below Class C is not included in the ADS-B requirement but operation within the mode C veil is.
Click to expand...

im not clear what your saying about removing it. yes, you are correct that each an independent box. the mode c veil is a solid ring, independent of what other airspace is inside of it, so adsb s required anywhere within that ring. so in the case of KSRQ, where the class c is half in the KTPA veil, you can fly under the KSRQ class c ring wthout adsb anywhere except the north side which is inside of the KTPA veil.
 
unsafervguy said:
im not clear what your saying about removing it. yes, you are correct that each an independent box. the mode c veil is a solid ring, independent of what other airspace is inside of it, so adsb s required anywhere within that ring. so in the case of KSRQ, where the class c is half in the KTPA veil, you can fly under the KSRQ class c ring wthout adsb anywhere except the north side which is inside of the KTPA veil.
Click to expand...
Some folks may think there's a rule that says that below Class C doesn't require ADS-B is an exception to the requirement rather than just airspace that is not included in one of the boxes and fails to consider whether there is another box which applies.

yes, I agree with your analysis.
 
Same applies to under class B airspace, ADS-B is not required. However, being under most class B airspace will be inside the Mode C veil and require ADS-B. There are a few examples of class B shelves outside of the Mode C veil where flying under them is allowed without being ADS-B Out equipped.
 
The obvious solution is to fly something that isn't with an electrical system. Then all this transponder / ADS-B/ mode C veil etc. stuff just goes away (OK, you have to say out of B/C and can't go over B unless you talk to someone... But...)
 
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