1 faa failure and two 121 failures, how to move forward

[Johnny delmi]

I have 1500 hours total

Failed commercial single.

Also was hired by my initial airline after hitting 1500 and passed everything except LOE two times for personal reasons. Was asked to resign, so I did.

Should I apply for a part 135 job, such as a pc-12 DEC?

 

[dmspilot]

Was the LOE at the same airline or a different one? If you've only been employed by one, another one will probably give you a chance. But don't bet that you'll be any more successful. What kind of "personal reason" causes you to fail training? Sounds like a lame excuse. If you have personal issues that are that severe, you call in sick or request a leave of absence.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Go where you want to be for your career. Regardless of where you go you’ll have to figure out how to resolve the problems that caused your failure at the regional. Nothing about a DEC job in a pc-12 that’s easier than being in the right seat of a regional. In fact it’s harder and will require more skill and judgment.

 

[Johnny delmi]

Was the LOE at the same airline or a different one? If you've only been employed by one, another one will probably give you a chance. But don't bet that you'll be any more successful. What kind of "personal reason" causes you to fail training? Sounds like a lame excuse. If you have personal issues that are that severe, you call in sick or request a leave of absence.

Yes, same and first airline.

Was the LOE at the same airline or a different one? If you've only been employed by one, another one will probably give you a chance. But don't bet that you'll be any more successful. What kind of "personal reason" causes you to fail training? Sounds like a lame excuse. If you have personal issues that are that severe, you call in sick or request a leave of absence.

Losing someone close to me
Yes, same airline. I'd rather not divulge personal info, but the event has been in the back of my mind throughout both checkrides. I passed oral checkride, maneuvers checkride, written, etc first try. It's not until the said event happened in my life, before my LOE, that led to my failures

 

[Johnny delmi]

Go where you want to be for your career. Regardless of where you go you’ll have to figure out how to resolve the problems that caused your failure at the regional. Nothing about a DEC job in a pc-12 that’s easier than being in the right seat of a regional. In fact it’s harder and will require more skill and judgment.

I'd really like 121 flying, but I have been applying the past two weeks and unfortunately no one wants to pick me up for regional airlines. Still waiting on 2 or 3 to respond.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'd really like 121 flying, but I have been applying the past two weeks and unfortunately no one wants to pick me up for regional airlines. Still waiting on 2 or 3 to respond.

Probably won’t be able to be picky about where you go. You’re definitely looking for a second chance and will really need to be successful the next time around. Make sure whatever your personal problems were the first time are resolved. Need to be able to focus on the task at hand. It’s a lot to get through as you know. Hang in there and get it done… if you can articulate clear reasons for the failure along with lessons learned and own it you’ll be able to move forward.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Recruiting events will be helpful as well. Just dropping an application without meeting a recruiter will be less likely to get an interview now. Just my hunch.

 

[dmspilot]

I'd really like 121 flying, but I have been applying the past two weeks and unfortunately no one wants to pick me up for regional airlines. Still waiting on 2 or 3 to respond.

Which regionals? You can tell me by PM if you want. I can try to make some suggestions.

 

[Tools]

This is easy. APPLY EVERYWHERE. Period.

Smooze, meet, shake hands, do your best.

You cannot control how some HR person is gonna view any of this, so don’t worry about it.

I got a rejection post card from Atlas, and then was offered interviews (and jobs) from American, Delta and Northwest less than 30 days later. Alaska never called, Sun Airlines never called, Frontier never called, and two dozen more... at least.

So there I was in a Delta interview...

“where else have you applied?”

“the list of places I HAVE NOT is shorter...”

Just keep trying!!

 

[Zeldman]

This is easy. APPLY EVERYWHERE. Period.

This.

Go with whoever will take you.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Losing someone close to me…
I'd rather not divulge personal info, but

Keep in mind that while it’s not necessary here, you’re going to have to explain the failures to the satisfaction of any potential employers. Losing someone didn’t cause the failures. The way you managed yourself on the job after the loss, and your ability to evaluate yourself for fitness of flight are probably going to become big topics of conversation.

 

[Clip4]

Most of life is just showing up on time and it doesn’t appear you can do that. Apply where you want, but you won’t last.

 

[jordane93]

I’d still apply to all of the regionals. Like others have said, you may have to accept the “lesser” ones if they hire you. Just be able to explain your failure in your future interviews and don’t blame anyone or any of your circumstances. I know it doesn’t help now but I had a classmate that was going through some personal stuff during training and my airline was very accommodating and understanding. If you need some time off, don’t be afraid to ask for it next time. They will work with you.

 

[Zeldman]

I have been applying the past two weeks

I once got a call for job and I did not know who they were. Turned out I sent a resume in a year earlier.

 

[WDD]

Sorry about your loss. Making appropriate decisions in flying starts with knowing when to not get in the cockpit. When talking to future employers you could explain that that was what you learned. You should have not gotten in the cockpit(simulator) until your head was in the game.

 

[Half Fast]

Sorry about your loss. Making appropriate decisions in flying starts with knowing when to not get in the cockpit. When talking to future employers you could explain that that was what you learned. You should have not gotten in the cockpit(simulator) until your head was in the game.

Quite true, and good advice. Sound judgement to not fly when you're not up to it. IMSAFE and all that.

However,.....

If an airline can't depend upon you to get your head in the game when they need you to fly, you're not much use to them. So I can understand an airline severing the relationship.

 

[Groundpounder]

Keep applying, and if you have your ATP include Spirit, Frontier and JetBlue in your search. Be ready to explain why you failed, and what you learned from the experience. Pay for some professional career counseling to help you prepare for any interviews you may get. I would strongly recommend Raven Careers. Also, keep in mind that you have used up two of your strikes. One more failure and your goose is cooked.

Good luck.

 

[orca64]

You’re in the wrong line of work. Sorry. The job won’t wait if you have some Karmic upset. I’m sorry you lost someone. But life happens and you’ve got to be ready and able to work in this industry, regardless. Flying airplanes requires your complete concentration. Time to buy a boat.

 

[Brad Z]

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-11424/pilot-records-database

 

[Jdm]

I know this thread is a couple months old but I want to offer my opinion as 20 year airline instructor in case you’re still contemplating.

Failures at the airlines, especially the regional airlines are very common. It’s usually not a long term problem. simple retain, retest, and on your way. Very few airline pilots don’t have at least one of these events somewhere in their past. I know plenty of LCA’s that have a single unsat/retrain. It’s definitely not an airline deal breaker. As a former LCA, PCA, and APD I’ve given about 400 type rides and about that many more checking events for a couple of different airlines. About 5% failure rates seem to be the airline norm. These are the ones that get quickly retrained and pass without additional problems.

With that being said, multiple initial failures are indicative a larger problem, and is not the industry norm. It happens occasionally. Maybe a dozen times or less per year in a busy training department. It can be overcome, but not without a lot of effort from the instructors, airline, and student. These types almost always end up in some sort of oversight program where they are watched closely by the airline and the FAA. They live a tough life trying to keep afloat. They are usually terrified of recurrent training, sim work, and line checks. They arrive nervous and stressed. Seems like a miserable life to me!
Pilots who consistently do well are the exact opposite. They don’t dread training. They come into school house relaxed and ready to take their training to a higher level. This is the good life!

Pilots who have a complete failure at the airline are the rarest of all. These are the ones who are ultimately asked to resign. It’s almost always new hires. Even in a busy training department I only see this maybe once or twice a year. Usually there’s multiple underlying issues. Many times there’s something going on in the pilots life that’s distracting them to the point that they can’t function, plus they struggle with basic airmanship fundamentals. Sometimes it’s a severe medical situation. Had a guy once who was loosing O2 to his brain because of major illness. He never flew again. The good thing is that every airline I’ve worked with has been excellent at identifying these things. Instructors are usually the ones who pick up on it first. I have NEVER witnessed a situation where the pilot just had a hard time and was asked to resign. The airlines always have multiple meetings with the student to help identify the problem. They are usually givin significant time off (without pay) to regroup. Then they are brought back for a clean start from scratch. If they still continue to fail and fall behind the program, that’s the end. Resign or be terminated. Yes, it’s hard to find your dream job after something like this.
Remember, the instructors play a huge role in determining the outcome. They’ve seen it all and know how to help, or not. If the pilot is likable and easy to work with, the instructors will usually bend over backwards to help! If the pilot is a PITA (rudeness or multiple excuses for everything) it’s going to be a very short trip to the door.

 

[bflynn]

And since it's back....

Do you have 1500 hours and a pulse? Are the issues that cause your previous problems resolved?

If yes to all three , apply and be frank about what happened before.

 

[O2 Birddog]

This.

Go with whoever will take you.

Not bad advice.

Get through the training and build the hours and experience then you will be a lot more marketable assuming everything goes well.

 

[martym]

Should I apply for a part 135 job, such as a pc-12 DEC?

I suggest poking around in corporate world where they don’t do PRIA checks. And in the future, don’t do checking events that you are not 100% ready and prepared to do.

 

[martym]

a busted ride isn’t going to matter

But 3 will, especially 2 for the same event.

 

[orca64]

Do you work in the industry?

You 100% don’t fly regardless, in the professional world of aviation we have flight risk tools, and even before that if you recently had a major life event there is a reason most reputable companies have bereavement leave.

A popped checkride, no one is going to care, especially a regional, as long as you don’t keep blowing the same ride, I don’t think it’s going to be a factor.

A boat will kill you just as dead, and in many ways if you’re going off shore it has its own risks unique to itself.

Yes. Though I retired from the “industry” several years ago.

Even then, I was seeing an ever-increasing number of Emo pilots. Not all, but too many. You know, young men and women who thought that nearly everything that happened in their lives was unique and/or, in so many instances, “terrible” or “horrifying”.

Oddly (or not), these were frequently the very same pilots who thought everyone, including me, should be interested in what they had for lunch.

I was not interested. I’m still not interested.

Why, once, one of them was even expected to dispatch with an inoperative autopilot! “Can they do that to us?” The horror! Oh the humanity!

Piloting airplanes used to be considered a Profession. It was what you were, not what you did. A professional pilot could perform, even in (especially in) adverse conditions regardless of circumstance. Like our society, things are changing.

A professional pilot rises to the occasion. A professional pilot is expected to do just that. No more, no less.

You can stop and float in your boat if things start moving too fast for you. You can even jump out of the boat if things get too tough.

I stand by my previous post.

 

[WDD]

M2C.

Who you are is not your job. Whether a plumber, electrician, or doctor or airline pilot. A job can be changed in a heartbeat.

Proud of your developed skills and abilities? Sure

Whatever job you have, take pride in it - show up on time, do the job well. Do a great job even if no one is looking.

A pilot who hangs up his hat early because of some medical what not is still the same person.

 

[dmspilot]

I will agree with the 2 for the same event being bad, easy to forgive a busted ride, but busting the same ride over and over is not good

I think if he does his time at a desperate regional, doesn’t pop any 121 rides, I’d imagine he’ll flow through just fine shy of any personality or HR issues

Low level GA part 61 rides I just don’t hold much worth in, and there is a reason the FAA tracks CFI pass rates, popping a ride when recommended by a CFI still popping pimples is very different from busting a flight safety ride

He's not talking about a busted CFI checkride. He's busted two 121 "rides" by failing IOE twice, which I'd argue is actually more serious than failing any FAA practical test (61 or 121). It shows you can't function in the real world.

 

[WDD]

He's not talking about a busted CFI checkride. He's busted two 121 "rides" by failing IOE twice, which I'd argue is actually more serious than failing any FAA practical test (61 or 121). It shows you can't function in the real world.

He did mention busting the part 61 commercial check ride, but agree - put that aside right now. There might have been a one time never to be repeated personal situation that caused him to bust the 121 ride twice - in which case he should have not taken the test, just as you don't get in the cock pit if you are Ill, emotional problem, alcohol, stress, etc.

If not, then agree to move on to some other career choice. Candidates "wash out" in military pilot training - the standard practice isn't to shoot them, and their life isn't over.

 

[MauleSkinner]

How was the MEL and opspec not covered under their indoc and checkride? Sounds like a major issue with the training department

More to the point, how were they covered so that everybody else understood them except this one person?

We’re dealing with this right now…Pilot A needed extra training, extra expense, extra hand-holding to get ready for the checkride. It’s all the training program’s fault.

Pilot B, with less experience, sat next to him the whole time and got through on schedule just fine.

 

[Groundpounder]

Yes. Though I retired from the “industry” several years ago.

Thank goodness.

 

[orca64]

Thank goodness.

What? No pictures of your lunch?

 

[DFH65]

Not in the airline industry but in most any industry just because you can make the minimum requirements of say 1500 hours doesn't mean you are cut out to do the job. Honestly not sure who died close to you and sorry for you loss but life goes on. I have lost a lot of people I love I still go to work and function every day. As a person who manages people that just seems like an excuse to me and twice? There had to be a time span between those tests. That just seems like you were unprepared. If it were me I would reevaluate if this was the right path for me.

I am dealing with this with one of my kids and I see it a lot in other younger people. He seems to last a few months in any job he does and it is always the instructor, the training material or the company. The reality is and I love him dearly but it is him. He wants a job with more pay and more prestige but he doesn't handle the responsibility well. He eventually sabotages the opportunity all the while blaming it on someone or something else. He doesn't want an "embarrassing" low end job but I am not sure he can handle real responsibility. I wouldn't hire him and that is sad to say.

 

[iRyan]

Failing the LOE twice is a huge deal; once, is rare but it happens. People have an off day. But twice? Something major is going on behind the scenes. The LOE is typically the easier part of training; the MV is the difficult portion. That's assuming the OP is doing AQP training; if not, the few regionals that don't use AQP have rather notorious training departments.

 

[35 AoA]

Failing the LOE twice is a huge deal; once, is rare but it happens. People have an off day. But twice? Something major is going on behind the scenes. The LOE is typically the easier part of training; the MV is the difficult portion. That's assuming the OP is doing AQP training; if not, the few regionals that don't use AQP have rather notorious training departments.

I'll defer to all of you with a lot more 121 experience than me, but this part does strike me as strange as well with respect to the OP's situation.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I'll defer to all of you with a lot more 121 experience than me, but this part does strike me as strange as well with respect to the OP's situation.

It’s not as rare as people make it sound. Also there is not always a significant time period between attempts. It really depends on the situation. The OP’s primary failure was not taking a a leave to deal with the family issues. Even the worst regionals out there today will accommodate people during training.

 

[dmspilot]

I'll defer to all of you with a lot more 121 experience than me, but this part does strike me as strange as well with respect to the OP's situation.

What part is strange?

 

[O2 Birddog]

Not in the airline industry but in most any industry just because you can make the minimum requirements of say 1500 hours doesn't mean you are cut out to do the job. Honestly not sure who died close to you and sorry for you loss but life goes on. I have lost a lot of people I love I still go to work and function every day. As a person who manages people that just seems like an excuse to me and twice? There had to be a time span between those tests. That just seems like you were unprepared. If it were me I would reevaluate if this was the right path for me.

I am dealing with this with one of my kids and I see it a lot in other younger people. He seems to last a few months in any job he does and it is always the instructor, the training material or the company. The reality is and I love him dearly but it is him. He wants a job with more pay and more prestige but he doesn't handle the responsibility well. He eventually sabotages the opportunity all the while blaming it on someone or something else. He doesn't want an "embarrassing" low end job but I am not sure he can handle real responsibility. I wouldn't hire him and that is sad to say.

You just described most of the kids raised since about 1990. No matter what they are taught at home they are taught by the public schools and society as a whole that they are special, that their feelings are the most important things in their lives and that the rest of society owes them something just because they are breathing.

This is permeating just about every level of the labor and even professional job markets.

At some point they like the rest of us will figure out we really don't matter all that much and there's always someone else willing to step up and do the job if they won't.

It may make for a few rough decades but sooner or later we'll get back on the right track. Society will simply cease to be able to function if we don't.

 

[Hengelo]

Holy Cow the “kids these days” energy here is eye watering. Sounds like a room full of bitter old dudes.

Stubborn ones at that.

To quote the younger generation “You mad bro? You sound mad.”

(Edit for spelling)

 

[dmspilot]

You just described most of the kids raised since about 1990. No matter what they are taught at home they are taught by the public schools and society as a whole that they are special, that their feelings are the most important things in their lives and that the rest of society owes them something just because they are breathing.

This is permeating just about every level of the labor and even professional job markets.

At some point they like the rest of us will figure out we really don't matter all that much and there's always someone else willing to step up and do the job if they won't.

It may make for a few rough decades but sooner or later we'll get back on the right track. Society will simply cease to be able to function if we don't.

There have always been successful and unsuccessful people, responsible and irresponsible, those who can handle constructive criticism and those who can't. Seems like you are using the thread to make a cheap shot at an entire demographic and it doesn't even have any relevance to the thread.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Holy Cow the “kids these days” energy here is eye watering. Sounds like a room full of bitter old dudes.

Stubben ones at that.

To quote the younger generation “You mad bro? You sound mad.”

Not bitter. Just pragmatic. I was raised in the beginning of the participation trophy trend. I was lucky to have strong male role models in school, home and church. There is a lot of really twisted crap being taught in school these days. Having two teenagers at home I get the pleasure of having to un**** what the schools do on the reg.