Reselling N-Numbers as a Business

GaryM said:
If your initials were EF in the quote request email, I'll bet that alone changed the quote.

I'll guess $7500 as their opening bid. With room to negotiate.
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My initials were in the email (Well, my whole name) but that didn't have an effect on the pricing. They have a structure.
 

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Interesting. So among the 3-character N-numbers, there is a $3000 upcharge for one ending in a double consonant.

And they have an unusually broad interpretation of what is a consonant. :confused:

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One more unmasked scalawag, er, free enterprise mogul :D

$5,500. I mean.... there are stupider plane upgrades in that price range that people often do... so if that improves your satisfaction in the plane by personalizing it... I could rationalize it.

I don't have monogramed towels either, so this vanity move is lost on me, but I won't yuck anyone's yum here. :D
 
how many idiots out there actually would pay that much
 
nauga said:
There aren't any right now. There would need to be exceptions to the process you quoted because it's not just TC'd single-owner one-airplane airplanes requiring N-numbers. Commercial fleets, manufacturers, research agencies, etc. The more you narrow things down to stop bulk N-number registrations, the more legitimate users you exclude...unless you add patchwork exceptions to accomodate them. It's this patchwork and the unintended consequences that set my teeth on edge.

Simple? Adding another inspection? Does this only apply to people who want specific N-numbers or does anyone getting a 'random' N-number have to do it too just in case someone might want the one that gets assigned? Either way, it's an additional inspection with associated wait time and fees for what is already an overburdened staff, and either (a) two processes that must be defined and regulate; one process for selected N-numbers and one for assigned N-numbers, or (b) an additional unneeded inspection and associated cost, delays, and paperwork for those who don't want a vanity tag.

I propose a simpler process:
1. Reserve the N-number you want from the list of available numbers, or let the FAA assign one to you.
2. When ready, register the airplane using that number and apply it to the airplane (order not important)
3. Single inspection by DAR or FAA ASI.
4. Fly.

Sound familiar?

Nauga,
who thinks the process is not the problem
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Yeah, the two inspection thing was just off the cuff...but hopefully the idea is presented..... aircraft is basically done...THEN you get your number. It oculd be streamlined, sure....

And I don't see it for commercial fleets, manufacturers, agencies, etc.... seems like the same could apply...have an airplane, get a number...maybe some nominal window between getting teh number and completion...but that don't have to be any many months or years long....

nauga said:
Some company *has* the one I wanted and I don't care if they never use it. My airplane flies no different with the number that's on it and it's too ingrained to go back now if the number became available...or affordable.
Personally I'm more concerned about people making my life potentially a lot more difficult so they can force someone else to give up something they want.

Nauga,
who is not facing an identity crisis
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I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about it....if the number I "want" is already flying...too bad...no big deal. But I'm a little less forgiving if it's not being used..... that smells selfish to me.
At the end of the day though, I just wouldn't want to be tortured with some tongue twisting mouthful of a problem. otherwise doesn't much matter.
 
The FAA could just say only individuals can reserve N numbers, and a reserved number can only be used on an aircraft owned by that individual or a company that individual controls. No added overhead.
 
Lindberg said:
The FAA could just say only individuals can reserve N numbers, and a reserved number can only be used on an aircraft owned by that individual or a company that individual controls. No added overhead.
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No overhead? Who's going to track it, since it's not tracked now? As for viability, I can see it now. "Boeing announced a 3-month slip in deliveries today when the VP holding reserved N-numbers for aircraft in production announced his retirement. FAA representatives were unavailable for comment."

...and the idea of requiring completion of an airplane and then waiting for a bureaucratic process to approve/assign a number before flying or even painting is ridiculous.

Nauga,
not a fan of added complexity
 
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nauga said:
It already works for experimentals. You want to add additional overhead and regulator involvement to the process. I do not.

Nauga,
who would like to avoid imperial entaglements
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That ship has sailed Nauga, the imperial entaglements (sic) is the requirement for a registration in the first place.
 
So on their web page, they have many, MANY N numbers ending in HJ...now, I know that I personally am quite a fan of the HJ, but apparently I'm not alone.

hj.jpg
 
nauga said:
No overhead? Who's going to track it, since it's not tracked now?
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Huh? How is it a reservation system if it isn't tracked? The only additional function would be checking whether the individual reserving a new number has an existing reservation.
As for viability, I can see it now. "Boeing announced a 3-month slip in deliveries today when the VP holding reserved N-numbers for aircraft in production announced his retirement. FAA representatives were unavailable for comment."
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Why does Boeing need to reserve specific N numbers? I've never manufactured aircraft, so maybe I'm missing something.
 
This reminds me that I even have a "vanity" compassion number. I must be really vain.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, if I want to build an LSA E-AB aircraft to fly on my sport pilot certificate, no reserved N number. That makes sense - real pilots have real medicals.
OTOH, if I have a Private certificate, I could start a company to reserve and resell vanity numbers.

------------------> :) <-------------------
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So shoot me. I am old.

A Certificate other than Student Pilot. Heck, even allow Student Pilots to reserve ONE number.
 
Hang 4 said:
The counter argument is that the tickets are underpriced to begin with. If there are swaths of people willing to pay much more, why should the promoter give up the profit?
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Artists often want to set ticket prices than the market might bear, to allow a full socioeconomic range of their fans to attend live events. This can be for a variety of reasons; maybe they feel they have enough money already, and get enjoyment out of the fact that their fans don't have to be rich to see them play. Maybe they want to ensure a full range of fans can attend live, to maintain a connection to all economic brackets and sell music to all, rather then being seen as stuck-up profiteers.

Whatever their motivation, these scalping ********s are perverting the artist's intent. A depressingly small number of people seem to understand that motivations exist other than just draining every possible dollar out of people.
 
Katamarino said:
Artists often want to set ticket prices than the market might bear, to allow a full socioeconomic range of their fans to attend live events. This can be for a variety of reasons; maybe they feel they have enough money already, and get enjoyment out of the fact that their fans don't have to be rich to see them play. Maybe they want to ensure a full range of fans can attend live, to maintain a connection to all economic brackets and sell music to all, rather then being seen as stuck-up profiteers.

Whatever their motivation, these scalping ********s are perverting the artist's intent. A depressingly small number of people seem to understand that motivations exist other than just draining every possible dollar out of people.
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Back when I was involved in the entertainment industry, tickets usually had very little profit added. The real money was made selling T-shirt’s, posters, CDs, etc., at the show. Of course, that was 35 years ago.
 
Katamarino said:
Artists often want to set ticket prices than the market might bear, to allow a full socioeconomic range of their fans to attend live events. This can be for a variety of reasons; maybe they feel they have enough money already, and get enjoyment out of the fact that their fans don't have to be rich to see them play. Maybe they want to ensure a full range of fans can attend live, to maintain a connection to all economic brackets and sell music to all, rather then being seen as stuck-up profiteers.

Whatever their motivation, these scalping ********s are perverting the artist's intent. A depressingly small number of people seem to understand that motivations exist other than just draining every possible dollar out of people.
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Have you checked out Ticketmaster's "dynamic pricing?" Supposedly it passes along some of the extra revenue to the artists. It also sends the ticket prices into crazy territory for popular events. Just another reason to love Ticketmaster.
 
So he's not only sleazy but shameless enough to include his name on the pricing sheet... the whole world now can know that "Sean Reynolds" is an a**hole.

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I liken this to someone who would have a bot reserving all of the campsites in National Parks, hen remarketing them for a huge markup. They are reserving a public resource for personal profit.
 
SCCutler said:
I liken this to someone who would have a bot reserving all of the campsites in National Parks, hen remarketing them for a huge markup. They are reserving a public resource for personal profit.
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Is that actually happening now, or is it meant as an analogy? I've not tried to reserve a campsite in a National Park in a very long time, but will likely be doing so next year. Just wondering what I might be up against.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
It appears based on comments that the company(s) have an inside track. I don’t have the option (or freedom) to bypass the company which doesn’t provide any extra value, they’ve inserted themselves in the middle (the proverbial middleman) between me and the government.
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sounds like they created a bot to buy them once available quickly… you are free to create such a bot too… no inside track needed.
 
Huckster79 said:
sounds like they created a bot to buy them once available quickly… you are free to create such a bot too… no inside track needed.
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So if someone buys up every N-number making none of them available, then what?
 
nauga said:
No overhead? Who's going to track it, since it's not tracked now? As for viability, I can see it now. "Boeing announced a 3-month slip in deliveries today when the VP holding reserved N-numbers for aircraft in production announced his retirement. FAA representatives were unavailable for comment."

...and the idea of requiring completion of an airplane and then waiting for a bureaucratic process to approve/assign a number before flying or even painting is ridiculous.

Nauga,
not a fan of added complexity
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Agreed.

That is why I suggested 1 reserved number if you have a Pilot Certificate (even Student). More than one, you have apply and prove that you are a large enough operation that a block of similar call signs would be good.

And airlines have them, but do they really need them as they use Flight Call Signs.

And does a large flight school really want a whole bunch of similar callsigns out and about with students???
 
GaryM said:
Is that actually happening now, or is it meant as an analogy? I've not tried to reserve a campsite in a National Park in a very long time, but will likely be doing so next year. Just wondering what I might be up against.
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It is meant as an analogy (and, I think, a good one), certainly not happening - yet! It is someone asserting and selling a property interest in something that they do not own, something that exists only by virtue of the government's monopoly ("monopoly" in this context not intended as a negative connotation).
 
Pinecone said:
Agreed.

That is why I suggested 1 reserved number if you have a Pilot Certificate (even Student). More than one, you have apply and prove that you are a large enough operation that a block of similar call signs would be good.

And airlines have them, but do they really need them as they use Flight Call Signs.

And does a large flight school really want a whole bunch of similar callsigns out and about with students???
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Allow me to propose something similar but from a different point of view...manufacturers, research organizations, prototype shops, any verifiable organization can reserve N-numbers as needed (and *they*, not you, determine need). Individuals with a student pilot or better must apply and prove ownership of an airplane. After all, individuals really don't need a vanity tag, right?

It's all a matter of whose ox is gored.

I think I'm being misconstrued as supporting the squatters - that's far from reality. I just think the "solutions" are as bad as the current state of things.

Nauga,
moving the problem around
 
nauga said:
Allow me to propose something similar but from a different point of view...manufacturers, research organizations, prototype shops, any verifiable organization can reserve N-numbers as needed (and *they*, not you, determine need). Individuals with a student pilot or better must apply and prove ownership of an airplane. After all, individuals really don't need a vanity tag, right?

It's all a matter of whose ox is gored.

I think I'm being misconstrued as supporting the squatters - that's far from reality. I just think the "solutions" are as bad as the current state of things.

Nauga,
moving the problem around
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I have no issue with your proposed solution. Or just doing away with reservations entirely. You register an airplane, you get the next available n number.
 
Lindberg said:
I have no issue with your proposed solution. Or just doing away with reservations entirely. You register an airplane, you get the next available n number.
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You can do that right now.

Nauga,
in the present
 
Bob Noel said:
and can continue to do that... until squatters reserve all the numbers... then what?
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We'll recycle all the N-numbers for the airplanes that can't fly because they can only burn 100LL. We can play what-if games all day.

Nauga,
who's got that kinda time
 
nauga said:
You can do that right now.
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Yes, and there's still public resources being over consumed for public gain. If "desirable" numbers are going to be auctioned for more than the unesirable ones, then the FAA should be doing it.
 
Lindberg said:
Yes, and there's still public resources being over consumed for public gain. If "desirable" numbers are going to be auctioned for more than the unesirable ones, then the FAA should be doing it.
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Once again, I don't disagree in principle; however, I don't think anyone else should be penalized by whatever changes are made to enable this.

Nauga,
and tortuous reform
 
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