Mechanic shortage worse than pilot shortage

I'd do outside A&P work within my expertise limits, but the "dollar 1" insurance nut is 9 grand, then about 10% of the gross -- so I only wrench on my stuff because my B&P policy agreed to cover my work on my plane.

Frankly I'm even doubting the wisdom of that since that signature is forever in the logs. I can't imagine how anyone would startup as a freelance A&P shop these days.
 
The local public opportunity school closed thr A&P school about 5 yrs ago. It had been operating for decades. Reason? Not enough students. Of course 1 A&P student was the equivalent to 5 other students when you look at the cost of tuition, about $20k for the entire program. This leaves the Spartan, the for profit school at something like $60k for the 20 month program
 
murphey said:
The local public opportunity school closed thr A&P school about 5 yrs ago. It had been operating for decades. Reason? Not enough students. Of course 1 A&P student was the equivalent to 5 other students when you look at the cost of tuition, about $20k for the entire program. This leaves the Spartan, the for profit school at something like $60k for the 20 month program
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And AIM. They have 14 campuses. Crazy expensive and the entry wages don’t match the debt, just like pilots.

https://aviationmaintenance.edu/

I know a few mechanics that graduated from an A&P and never took the A&P. Before they graduated, they were already offered work outside of aviation with higher pay and benefits. Companies love A&P students because they learn to use many tools, skills and systems.
 
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Racerx said:
Meanwhile we keep pushing college and some mostly useless degrees.
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Yep, push kids to college degrees so they end up still in our basements with a lot of debt. Turning wrenches and trade work has been looked down on too long, and we will all pay the price when they can demand much higher rates to do work.
 
Based on the rates people were quoting for A&P work I pay more to have work done on our Volvo at the shop.
 
schmookeeg said:
I'd do outside A&P work within my expertise limits, but the "dollar 1" insurance nut is 9 grand, then about 10% of the gross -- so I only wrench on my stuff because my B&P policy agreed to cover my work on my plane.

Frankly I'm even doubting the wisdom of that since that signature is forever in the logs. I can't imagine how anyone would startup as a freelance A&P shop these days.
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They probably go without insurance, just like aircraft owners (see other thread).
 
My opinion of most Secondary School Administrators is very low and the same for School Board members. Most are ignorant of all the trades and push the worthless degrees.

There were tuition-free Part 147 AMT Programs in High Schools. Most have closed now.
 
The Davis Aerospace Technical High School, which used to be on the Detroit City Airport property, currently has 20 students enrolled.
When I worked at City Airport in the early 1980's, most of the mechanics on the field were graduates of this school.
 
I am working with a high school program to try and get select students’ experience about 1/3 signed off by graduation.

Then I only have to employ them less than two years as an apprentice at my 145 before I can get them their a&p.

Never a starving student. Don’t have the hassles of getting a 147.

It’s an excellent way of vetting them prior to taking them on as apprentices. I have two right now part time, and they are EXCELLENT.

I’ll let ya know in 30 months how it’s going!
 
Tools said:
I am working with a high school program to try and get select students’ experience about 1/3 signed off by graduation.

Then I only have to employ them less than two years as an apprentice at my 145 before I can get them their a&p.

Never a starving student. Don’t have the hassles of getting a 147.

It’s an excellent way of vetting them prior to taking them on as apprentices. I have two right now part time, and they are EXCELLENT.

I’ll let ya know in 30 months how it’s going!
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Tip of the hat to you sir. May I ask, where are you located?
 
Fracpilot said:
And AIM. They have 14 campuses. Crazy expensive and the entry wages don’t match the debt, just like pilots.

https://aviationmaintenance.edu/

I know a few mechanics that graduated from an A&P and never took the A&P. Before they graduated, they were already offered work outside of aviation with higher pay and benefits. Companies love A&P students because they learn to use many tools, skills and systems.
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I bought my A&P books from a student who quit AP school to go work at the city bus garage before he graduated.
 
https://prod.orangecoastcollege.edu/academics/technology/airframe-powerplant-technology/index.html
The A&P school I earned my license at in 1985 is still operating and producing technicians. I could probably go to work tomorrow in GA but I’d be risking everything I’ve worked for over the years. A technician can get caught up in a lawsuit even if he/she is innocent of any wrongdoing, so not worth it in my book. I respect those that are willing to put their neck on the chopping block to work in GA
 
I am in Gulf Shores AL. The business is Aeropro. I’ve sort of mentioned it in other threads, and I’ve been given credit for ownership, which is NOT the case, I run the business.

I’ve got pilot credentials, enough to accomplish what the owners had been trying for years, and sort of wound up in charge of a flight school, a&p test prep course, 145 repair station and a few more “things”.

It’s going well, there were a lot of balls sitting on the goal line, I’m trotting along kicking them over the line and getting credit!!

The “program” I’m talking about, like a lot of things, sort of fell in my lap. We have a maint hangar, and the offices in a different hangar where we run the flight school. In the hangar bay there, a program called “Tango Flight” was set up and a high school class is building a RV-12.

The owners charged me with looking into starting a 147… wow. I just starting connecting the dots, and a few other planets lined up and we have a pretty cool plan I think.

If there pilots or mechanics here looking for opportunities, STRONG preference given to vets, willing to relocate, drop me a message. We are starting up operations in other locations.

For example, I am trying to get in touch with a 50 yr, Vietnam vet, pilot I just got a lead on, who has decided to quit flying. I’m going to ask if he’s interested in teaching private pilot ground school to high school kids. That and LOTS more.

By golly, I’m gonna solve this shortage of pilots and mechs come hell or high water!
 
Yup….I’m scaling way back because of the liability issues. It just isn’t worth it for me.
Brad Smith said:
https://prod.orangecoastcollege.edu/academics/technology/airframe-powerplant-technology/index.html
The A&P school I earned my license at in 1985 is still operating and producing technicians. I could probably go to work tomorrow in GA but I’d be risking everything I’ve worked for over the years. A technician can get caught up in a lawsuit even if he/she is innocent of any wrongdoing, so not worth it in my book. I respect those that are willing to put their neck on the chopping block to work in GA
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As long as the current blue collar compensation model of pay as little as possible and charge as much as possible for health insurance continues there will be few going to AP school.
 
Gary Ward said:
I bought my A&P books from a student who quit AP school to go work at the city bus garage before he graduated.
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A young guy came out to work on my combine last fall in a field that's right under the extended centerline of 14L at CMI. He mentioned that he used to work in the piston shop, but left because there was more money being an ag mechanic. If he'd stuck it out and gotten his a&p I think it would've been comparable money with the benefit of not getting quite as dirty, but of course that takes time.

There's three guys in the shop currently...two were aircraft mechanics in the military, and the other went to a&p school just because he loved airplanes, but didn't think he could afford to pay his way through pilot school. All the other a&p's I've met have been former military mechanics, or pilots first who wanted to be able to work on their own planes.
 
I was working for one of the big three when on October 1st 2020, the day the Payroll Protection Program expired, they laid off just over 50% of the mechanics and turned their major west coast base into a line station. The work at a line station is mostly midnight shift, there are a handful of mechanics that man the gates on day and swing shifts but it's generally a babysitting job of checking oil and tires and all gripes that can't be fixed by a reset or rapping on it with a hammer will be deferred if allowed until the aircraft reaches it's RON (remain overnight) station. So that, combined with the whole Covid mess, prompted many of us to decide to retire. Then, when they began to recall furloughed mechanics, they found that a large portion of them didn't want to come back. So it's an ongoing and worsening situation that isn't going to be easily fixed and if you have done any air travel over the past few months you have an idea of what the results are and what it's likely to continue to be for the foreseeable future.
 
The local school district just completed a large hangar and classroom complex for AMT training at my home drome (I19). I believe they have 20-30 students now.

The local community college also has a robust AMT program at another hangar/classroom facility at a different location. I can audit classes there as a geezer and they had 50+ enrolled in a couple classes I was in. Just about all the ones who were in the final phases had offers from the feeder airlines.

Cheers
 
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Selfishly tried talking my former tenant who's son will be a junior in high school to get into avionics. We dont have a school district or community college around that has an aviation related stem program. During Covid the vocational welding program was done online. How the hell does that work?!
 
Uh, like some of my mechanics that want to work from home?!!!
 
In the flight school we could take students from zero time to Commercial multi IFR in six months if they worked hard enough, and they could get a flying job up north or something. Mechanics? In Canada? Four years minimum. Two years of formal training, with up to maybe 22 months of that granted toward the 48-month apprenticeship, if the school was approved by Transport Canada (TC) and met certain criteria. The training is cheaper than flight training, but apprenticeship wages sort of drag you down like high flight training costs do anyway.

We used to joke that we could train a monkey to fly, but we'd never be able to train a monkey to fix an airplane. The knowledge and skills required to get the license or certificate are widely unappreciated by pilots and owners, at least until a pilot or owner tries to get his own maintenance ticket. He soon finds out that there's way more to it than he ever dreamed.

I used to go to an annual AME Symposium. (AME = Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.) One year an enforcement guy from TC came and gave a talk about what they would do to a mechanic that screwed up. There were a whole bunch of AME students from the local college there that day, and about half of them quit the program immediately. TC got an earful about that from the college and from the shops and operators that couldn't get enough mechanics. The work is difficult enough without throwing stones at the student while he's studying.

It's little wonder that GA is running out of mechanics. It hasn't a chance as long as lawyers see easy lawsuit money in it, and governments wrap ever more chains around it.
 
Racerx said:
Meanwhile we keep pushing college and some mostly useless degrees.
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TommyG said:
Yep, push kids to college degrees so they end up still in our basements with a lot of debt. Turning wrenches and trade work has been looked down on too long, and we will all pay the price when they can demand much higher rates to do work.
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Magman said:
My opinion of most Secondary School Administrators is very low and the same for School Board members. Most are ignorant of all the trades and push the worthless degrees.
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I know the whole "people should go into the trades!" thing has been beat to death over the last couple years. But it's not that simple.

For sure, there are a lot of people that go to college and waste their money. There is also a lot of people that come out with the tools and skills to get a good job.

Going into any kind of trade isn't some magic path to career nirvana. You can get crushed by the economy just like any other career field.

There is no "shortage" of mechanics. There is a shortage of pay for mechanics.

That holds true for just about any "employee shortage" that the news dreams up.
 
Ask around and find out what most shops actually pay their piston A&P's - you might be shocked at how low the pay is and most don't get alot of opportunities for OT. 40 hours @ $20 per hour around here for a young piston A&P is about the norm.
 
Stephen Shore said:
Ask around and find out what most shops actually pay their piston A&P's - you might be shocked at how low the pay is and most don't get alot of opportunities for OT. 40 hours @ $20 per hour around here for a young piston A&P is about the norm.
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And would we all be willing to pay the shop rate if someone offered a livable, middle class wage to their young A&P’s? Probably not.
 
Racerx said:
Meanwhile we keep pushing college and some mostly useless degrees.
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That's no longer as true as it was even 10 years ago. The push for trade schools is slowly but surely getting louder and more prevalent.
 
Dan Thomas said:
In the flight school we could take students from zero time to Commercial multi IFR in six months if they worked hard enough, and they could get a flying job up north or something. Mechanics? In Canada? Four years minimum. Two years of formal training, with up to maybe 22 months of that granted toward the 48-month apprenticeship, if the school was approved by Transport Canada (TC) and met certain criteria. The training is cheaper than flight training, but apprenticeship wages sort of drag you down like high flight training costs do anyway.

We used to joke that we could train a monkey to fly, but we'd never be able to train a monkey to fix an airplane. The knowledge and skills required to get the license or certificate are widely unappreciated by pilots and owners, at least until a pilot or owner tries to get his own maintenance ticket. He soon finds out that there's way more to it than he ever dreamed.

I used to go to an annual AME Symposium. (AME = Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.) One year an enforcement guy from TC came and gave a talk about what they would do to a mechanic that screwed up. There were a whole bunch of AME students from the local college there that day, and about half of them quit the program immediately. TC got an earful about that from the college and from the shops and operators that couldn't get enough mechanics. The work is difficult enough without throwing stones at the student while he's studying.

It's little wonder that GA is running out of mechanics. It hasn't a chance as long as lawyers see easy lawsuit money in it, and governments wrap ever more chains around it.
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Yep. I remember when TC started bringing in ex cops and RCMP (2010'ish). They knew how to "interview" and find "the smoking gun" mistake in a logbook. Fun times! :rolleyes:
 
Sierra_Hotel said:
That's no longer as true as it was even 10 years ago. The push for trade schools is slowly but surely getting louder and more prevalent.
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I think that push is coming from the people paying those student loans and realizing there's other options. I went to trade school in '08 after high school. Was done 4 months later. By 2012 I owned 2 homes. I'm basing this off my personal experience. Which is 15 years ago at this point. I deal with structural engineers on a daily basis and get talked down to because I'm just a dumb welder. Well, this dumb welder has actual experience actually building things. Your knowledge is theoretical. And I'm talking to you now because the bar joist I'm supposed to reinforce runs north south, not east west like on your plan.

Recently I have had more younger guys inquire if I was hiring. So perhaps that shift is really happening. However, the last 3 hires that went to and graduated from trade school didn't know the absolute basics. So these trade schools are just taking their money and don't care whether you learn or not. I just lost an employee who will be an instructor at the local community college. Funny, he went there yet I taught him more in a week than he learned in 2 semesters. We're friends away from work and have known him since we wrestled in middle school, so I'm hoping he sends some of the better ones my way after he does some vetting.
 
Racerx said:
What is a livable wage?
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According to Pew Research, $20/hr, 40 hours a week, working 50 weeks a year is a middle class income in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm sure it's on the lower end of middle class, as PR defines middle class as $30,000 - $90,000, but it is still considered middle class, even though I said the mechanic was married and his wife wasn't working. I think a lot of the people here have never had experience with making less than an upper middle class income, so making $20/hr sounds like a pitiful wage.

ETA: Link to the calculator I used: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/07/23/are-you-in-the-american-middle-class/
 
Tools said:
I am working with a high school program to try and get select students’ experience about 1/3 signed off by graduation.
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Volvo does the same thing in the Charleston, SC area.

Boeing has made the A&P program one of the tuition-free programs at the local CC (Trident).
 
SkyChaser said:
…$20/hr, 40 hours a week, working 50 weeks a year is …
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$40K gross. Depending on location that’s anywhere from poverty to solid middle class and for a first job in a career field (not first job) that’s respectable money.

What I’m about to say is not about you, but this idea that year 1 in any career field should pay at mid- to highly experienced rates shows a flat misunderstanding of the value of experience and expertise created over time. I expect the same folks thinking $100K/yr is entry level pay did not make six figure in their first year.*

Given there’s always edge cases, yes there are jobs that $100k is achievable as an entry level pay rate. Those probably come with a hefty cost in terms of education or billable hours. The billable hours folks pushing 80+ hours/week for $100k breaks down to $25/hr, which is just a $5/hr premium for twice the work.

For perspective, BofA entry level tellers make ~$35K/yr plus bonus plus $5000/yr in tuition assistance for a no experience, HS diploma only needed job. After 4-6 years of industry experience and earning a bachelors at mostly company expense, those tellers (who promote up a ladder annually) are making $50k - $65k and competitive for a $85k/yr first level manager or staff job.
 
TomF said:
Based on the rates people were quoting for A&P work I pay more to have work done on our Volvo at the shop.
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It's always been like that. My A&P class had less than half graduate that stared the course. I think it was 6 that got licensed. 3 yr later only two working under their license. The Porche dealer paid more than twice what I made at my first A&P job. Once i got the to the "big" job, i made close to as much, but got furloughed a few times. They never did. 10 yrs later i was flying the line, as the A&P and the experience with it got me a flying job, that I got furloughed from also. The A&P's that went into other fields were MUCH better off, for years than the ones who stayed in aviation. The ONLY reason you go into aviation for a career is a passion for it, and nothing else will do, and your willing to suffer the consequences.
 
I think the idea that $40K is not a good salary for a first job in a career field is silly, but I'm coming from a background of making between $2-$5K less than $30K a year, so that probably affects my perception of a good salary. :) Even with that wage, I was able to almost completely pay off my student loans, buy two cars (granted, they were older cars), and get my PPL within three years of graduating college.

I would be willing to hazard a guess that the shortage has a lot to do with a general disinterest in aviation and wanting to avoid being sued out of house and home for something that may not even be your fault (like when pilots run out of gas and sue the manufacturer even though they crashed because they didn't fill up the tanks).
 
SkyChaser said:
According to Pew Research, $20/hr, 40 hours a week, working 50 weeks a year is a middle class income in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm sure it's on the lower end of middle class, as PR defines middle class as $30,000 - $90,000, but it is still considered middle class, even though I said the mechanic was married and his wife wasn't working.
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Agreed. And if you consider the case where the wife is working and earning a comparable income, that's $80k/year gross, a very solid middle class income that will let them live a comfortable lifestyle and save toward retirement. Not bad at all.

I think part of the problem is that there is a somewhat low ceiling. An entry-level mechanic can make 20-25 bucks an hour, but after he's put in 30 years he'll likely only be making 35 bucks an hour (or less!) if he's still turning wrenches and not running a shop. Some folks want a career path that offers more growth opportunity.
 
It'll never happen, but I wish the FAA would allow some sort of training and certification for private pilots to maintain their own aircraft, beyond the "preventive maintenance" that's in the regs. I don't need to learn about servicing jet engines or making wood and fabric repairs to do simple things like replacing a vac pump on my little plane, so there's no need for a full A&P ticket. A limited mech's cert would be nice.
 
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