Skylane avionics upgrade

[ServoB17]

Hey POA. Been lurking for years but just started posting more regularly. Doing a big upgrade on my recently acquired 182Q and thought I'd share the progress. Just dropped the plane off last week. Little background, I moved on from a 10 member club with a single 172 last year and purchased this Skylane as my forever plane. Took about a year of looking and I didn't know this was the plane I wanted until I found it. Low time engine, pretty good interior, paint is in good shape even if the scheme is generic, but the avionics are ancient and now I get to update them! I put the deposit down way back in December, so I'm very excited to finally get going.

Plan is for a completely new panel and every light on the plane to get swapped over to LED. It's a big upgrade. My thinking is to do as much as I can all at once and then hopefully enjoy it for many, many years. First task will be getting my IR in it.

Going all Garmin for the avionics: G500TXi PFD, GTN-750Xi, GFC-600, GMA-345, GNC-255, GTX-345.

Supposed to take 8 weeks, but not sure I believe that. I'll post updates as we go.

 

[LesGawlik]

I am doing the same thing. G5s, 530W, 430, GFC500, PMA 350B, USB ports, CIES senders, JPI 900 Primary, and clock. And Flitestream 210. I would rather have a FS 210, iPad, FF and 530W than any other touchscreen GPS. I've flown with this setup for years, and for me it's optimum.

K2U wheel pants and cowl strake. Everything should be ready next week. The new panel is beautiful.

 

[asicer]

Going all Garmin for the avionics: G500TXi PFD, GTN-750Xi, GFC-600, GMA-345, GNC-255, GTX-345.

Impressive! Why did you decide on the G500TXi instead of the G3x? Similarly, why the GFC600 instead of the GFC500?

 

[ServoB17]

Man, I wish my plane was going to be ready next week. I'm missing prime flying season here.

Impressive! Why did you decide on the G500TXi instead of the G3x? Similarly, why the GFC600 instead of the GFC500?

Mostly because it's newer tech. Figured if I was going to do this huge upgrade let's stretch the budget a bit and and get the latest and hopefully I'll get some more life out of it in the end. I also like the HSI Map feature on the G500. It puts a little map right there on the PFD with traffic, nexrad, terrain, etc overlays. It's almost like a secondary MFD.

Same really for the 600, but also it uses beefier servos and has an internal AHRS that doesn't require an external G5 or GI275. I was originally thinking GFC500 and then as I was talking over possible failures with the installer he says, "well if you're concerned, for only a few thousand more..."

 

[Martin Pauly]

This will be an excellent setup, @ServoB17 - I would only suggest one addition, the Garmin PFD controller to give you dedicated knobs for heading, baro, altitude, VS, and IAS. It'll make use of the PFD and autopilot so much easier.
Other than that, I think you have everything covered!

And maybe consider the GMA 350c audio panel over the 345, or maybe the PMA450B.

- Martin

 

[ServoB17]

Thanks for the tips @Martin Pauly. I'll take a second look at the PFD controller. I kept adding and adding and eventually just had to draw a line somewhere. But I feel like after flying with everything for a year or two I'll be making some tweaks. At a minimum I'll ask them to layout a place for it in the panel. I can't imagine it'd be too hard to add later.

The big difference I saw with the GMA 350c was the support for "Push to Command," but I dislike voice interfaces in general so decided to skip it.

 

[asicer]

The big difference I saw with the GMA 350c was the support for "Push to Command," but I dislike voice interfaces in general so decided to skip it.

Do you see yourself using mostly the audio panel hard buttons? Or do you think you'll be using the remote control from the TXi? Can the TXi remote control a GMA345?

 

[ServoB17]

Do you see yourself using mostly the audio panel hard buttons? Or do you think you'll be using the remote control from the TXi? Can the TXi remote control a GMA345?

I do. Never had a remote panel, and didn't even consider one for this upgrade. Not like the 182 is hurting for panel space. That's a good question though, I don't see the 345 listed under supported audio panels on Garmin's site. My plan has been to have the extra data fields enabled on the 750 and use the hard keys for everything.

 

[asicer]

I do. Never had a remote panel, and didn't even consider one for this upgrade. Not like the 182 is hurting for panel space. That's a good question though, I don't see the 345 listed under supported audio panels on Garmin's site. My plan has been to have the extra data fields enabled on the 750 and use the hard keys for everything.

If that's the case, I'd do as @Martin Pauly suggests and switch out the GMA345 for a PMA450B. It's way better, especially if you have passengers who like to listen to music.

 

[ServoB17]

I should have started this thread right after I bought the plane. I wish PS-Engineering had been on my radar before I placed the order, I probably would have gone with them instead of a Garmin audio panel.

 

[Sachin]

Going all Garmin for the avionics: G500TXi PFD, GTN-750Xi, GFC-600, GMA-345, GNC-255, GTX-345.

Supposed to take 8 weeks, but not sure I believe that. I'll post updates as we go.

How much is this costing, if you don't mind me asking? We have Q model that we are looking to upgrade the panel on. Right now, have the Aspen 1500 PFD, MFD, 430W, STEC55X and a GTX330es. The backups are vacuums. Looking to keep the 430 for WAAS, and add single G500txi, GFC600, 345R, and a G5 for backup. Might keep the 930 or replace it with a 2nd G500txi. We are a club and not many use garmin pilot, so not sure if FS210 would be a good addition, or even worthwhile.

 

[ServoB17]

It's costing enough. I'd rather not post exact numbers, but I will say that the rule of thumb to figure the MSRP as the installation cost is really pretty close. Also, doing so much at once is saving me a bit on the labor.

I think you lose some features of the G500Txi and GFC600 if you don't pair it with a GTN navigator. Smart Glide for sure, I think also VNAV, maybe a few others. Might want to think about that over a second G500. I'm leaving a space on the panel for a copilot's GI275 in the future.

I am a Garmin Pilot user and I'm skipping the Flight Stream myself for now. It'd be pretty easy to add in the future.

 

[mscheuer]

This will be an excellent setup, @ServoB17 - I would only suggest one addition, the Garmin PFD controller to give you dedicated knobs for heading, baro, altitude, VS, and IAS. It'll make use of the PFD and autopilot so much easier.
Other than that, I think you have everything covered!

And maybe consider the GMA 350c audio panel over the 345, or maybe the PMA450B.

- Martin

I think Les typo'd the 350B (GARMIN makes a 345 and a 350c) when he probably meant 450B (I sure hope so!)
There are a few things to know about the GMA345. It doesn't have music distribution, only music selection. So, if the pilot wants to hear Foreflight, everyone will hear Foreflight. The pilot can select Crew or ISO modes but then they lose the passengers' intercom. There is a switch in the rear of the GMA345 but once you pull the audio panel out, flip the switch and slide it back in, then the passengers will only hear Music 2
Since Les doesn't appear to be purchasing the GTN series, IMHO, I can't think of a single reason to go with the GMA350c. Its voice commands won't work and frankly, again IMHO, it is not intuitive to use as the PMA450B.
And if the OP looks into the PMA450B, they might find having dual Bluetooth(R) and a very intuitive interface be a bit of interest.

 

[LesGawlik]

Correct. I meant PMA 450B for the audio panel. I have the 6000B in the Sundowner, and like the audio panel. The 450B is the latest version from PMA. I have a love-hate relationship with Garmin. I wish there were more brands to choose from, but I'm glad they're there. And their products seem to function well with each other.

I hope my project is done this week. I've had a massive amount of other work done, including an annual as part of the process (everything is open already, the annual was up in May, so why not squirt a little oil on everything at the same time?). The panels are in, the main, the lower switch panel and the co-pilot's side. We had the switch panel silk-screened over the powder coating. The center stack is in. I think there is bundle for the AP which still needs to be fabbed.

I also had the K2U wheel pants and cowl fairing installed and the extended baggage compartment put in. I like the under wing courtesy lights, so they went in too. All I want to do that remains are gap seals and VGs.

 

[Jim Gosney]

Interesting topic. I’m thinking of buying a 182 and one possibility is buy one with older panel and doing a similar upgrade job. Glad to see the discussion. Are you having trouble with delivery of parts and or shop available time?

 

[LesGawlik]

I didn't have any trouble. I bought most of the equipment late last year. My GNS430W and 530W were bought used. Everything else was new.

I was swindled buying the 530. I posted several threads about that experience. Luckily, the credit card company was very helpful, and I didn't lose anything when all was finished.

Nothing you're waiting for ever happens as quickly as you want. I had a lot of other work done, and it has taken time. I'm anxious to see the plane fly again.

 

[Warmi]

How much is this costing, if you don't mind me asking? We have Q model that we are looking to upgrade the panel on. Right now, have the Aspen 1500 PFD, MFD, 430W, STEC55X and a GTX330es. The backups are vacuums. Looking to keep the 430 for WAAS, and add single G500txi, GFC600, 345R, and a G5 for backup. Might keep the 930 or replace it with a 2nd G500txi. We are a club and not many use garmin pilot, so not sure if FS210 would be a good addition, or even worthwhile.

Probably around 80-100k for the whole setup … going with G3x in an experimental would bring it down to about 30-40k or so with very similar capabilities.

 

[ServoB17]

I wouldn't say "trouble" but there was a 6 month lead time from the deposit until they started the work. The shop is pretty busy, but I got the sense that most of that was waiting for Garmin to ship. I'm still glad I found a plane I could upgrade but there are definite downsides. For me the 6 month wait is not so bad as the plane being down in July and Aug. But it is what it is.

Went out to visit the shop yesterday. Autopilot servos installed, center stack is being harnessed up, they were patching holes from the removed antennas and working on the engine sensors when I got there. We talked through some last minute details. We're leaving a spot open for a future PFD mode controller at the bottom of the center stack. And while everything is open I'm asking them to run a cable for a future space-based ADSB antenna in case that becomes a requirement in Canada.

 

[LesGawlik]

Talked to the techs this morning. Configuration today. Recowling and ground runs Monday, and if all goes well, test flight Monday afternoon!

Don't think I'll be able to sleep for a while.

 

[mscheuer]

I should have started this thread right after I bought the plane. I wish PS-Engineering had been on my radar before I placed the order, I probably would have gone with them instead of a Garmin audio panel.

Where is the frown emoji when you need one!

 

[Anthem]

Not sure I would do the GFC600 vs the GFC500 and paired with the G500Txi. The 600 is usually for larger turboprops and such. the 182 is kind of at the bottom of the list of what it will work with, but thats totally up to you as it has the capability to be used without the PFD whereas the GFC500 must generally be paired with the G500txi/G5/GI275. Jus whether you want the 22K autopilot vs the 9K. Installation will be around 10k regardless.

But nice looking set up and looking forward to seeing it.

 

[LesGawlik]

Here she is, ready to go.

 

[Darwin60]

Nice

 

[ServoB17]

Looks great, Les! Can't wait to take some after pics of mine.

Not sure I would do the GFC600 vs the GFC500 and paired with the G500Txi. The 600 is usually for larger turboprops and such. the 182 is kind of at the bottom of the list of what it will work with, but thats totally up to you as it has the capability to be used without the PFD whereas the GFC500 must generally be paired with the G500txi/G5/GI275. Jus whether you want the 22K autopilot vs the 9K. Installation will be around 10k regardless.

The G500Txi can't drive the GFC500. I think this is mostly a marketing decision by Garmin and well, can't say it didn't work on me. With a G3X/G5 install you get redundancy as either can drive the GFC500. But step up to a G500Txi/GI275 and the GFC500 is dependent on the GI275 alone.

My quote only went up $6K with the change to the GFC600, and I thought that was a good deal for larger servos, integrated AHRS and some enhanced approach VNAV capability. Part of the reason for the smaller difference is the pitch trim servo. It's an option on the 500 but included in the base price for the 600. And since I was already planning on installing one, the delta between the two is smaller than if you just look at the minimum cost for each.

 

[LesGawlik]

It's amazing how plain (NPI) the panel looks compared to the old one. The more complicated the gizmos, the simpler the displays look, at least when off. The ultimate expression of this is the real glass panels which are just blank TV screens and a peanut gyro. I loo at that picture and wonder where all the money went...

 

[asicer]

peanut gyro

I'm not familiar with that term. What is it?

Google gives me pictures of Greek flatbread sandwiches:

 

[LesGawlik]

Peanut gyros were the little, I think 2 1/4" electric gyros people used to put in panels when most AIs were pneumatic/vacuum. A little easier to read than your TC/altimeter if your vacuum pump went TU.

 

[LesGawlik]

I flew 74X for the first time since the upgrade. I am very impressed. Test flight to Easton, MD, KESN. It makes flying so simple it's like cheating. I put the destination in FF on the iPad. Sent the FP to the 530W via the Flightstream. It popped right up. Took off, turn around, engaged NAV and dialed in the altitude. Put in the approach for RWY 33. That gave me a very sharp turn go get on approach. I pressed Heading and dialed in a course which was a reciprocal to the runway, but several miles to the northeast. When I got abeam the initial fix, I hit Approach. The GFC 500 turned right 90*, flew a little, and turned another 90* to intercept the final approach course. When we got to the FAF, the GS centers and down we go. When I got lower, I hit the TOGA button and off we went. Put the home drome on the iPad and sent it to the 530W. Put in the LDA 33. Pressed NAV and off we went to the IAF. Went to green needles and pressed Approach again. Down we went right along the GS and the LOC.

I had never flown a plane with an AP before. My only experience was the 172 on XP-11. This setup is about as simple as it can get. It was very exciting.

 

[ServoB17]

Getting a little tired of looking up at clear blue skies, but finally starting to see some light at the end of this tunnel. First test fit of the new panel went well. They've got a couple of gaps to clean up still, but looking pretty good. All the servos are installed. Engine wired up.

New knots2u wingtip lights are in. We're leaving the two in the cowl as taxi lights, and got a MaxPulse to control them all.

And I took some time to rehab some of the interior trim pieces. Panel should go out for powder coating and screen printing this week, then it's "just" on to wiring and testing. I started this weekend with a flight school for some glass transition and an IR rating, but really looking forward to get back flying my plane.

 

[Leyrah]

I'll be going through this process soon as well, I have a TR182 and my new panel will be quite similar to yours. Main difference is GFC500 (because the 600 doesn't support my airframe), PMA450B which is already installed and a GTN 650Xi as a secondary NAV/COM.
I would love to know your weight savings when this is done! Will you be removing the vacuum system?

You're pretty lucky that you're able to get the GFC-600, not many planes support it.

 

[ServoB17]

I'm curious about the weight as well. Yes, no more vacuum system, and all those 80's era radios seemed really heavy to me.