Flying airplane with missing cowl flap

Supereri

Supereri

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Supereri
So I’m thinking of buying a Cessna 182 that recently had a cowl flap go missing. The seller is looking for one now, but hasn’t found one yet. He’s talking about discounting the airplane the cost of a new one. My concern is the airplane legal to fly missing one cowl flap? If I buy the aircraft can I get it home across the country missing it?
 
Supereri said:
So I’m thinking of buying a Cessna 182 that recently had a cowl flap go missing. The seller is looking for one now, but hasn’t found one yet. He’s talking about discounting the airplane the cost of a new one. My concern is the airplane legal to fly missing one cowl flap? If I buy the aircraft can I get it home across the country missing it?
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Well, it’s not a control surface so it just might be legal. If you ask Cessna, they will tell you the lawyers’ but also safe answer. I would not recommend it and get it fixed first by the seller. If you take on the repair, no telling what else you will find. Wentworth has all sorts of parts, and there are probably Cessna specialist recyclers too. Not finding the cowl flap is a lack of effort, not a lack of parts.
 
Supereri said:
So I’m thinking of buying a Cessna 182 that recently had a cowl flap go missing. The seller is looking for one now, but hasn’t found one yet. He’s talking about discounting the airplane the cost of a new one. My concern is the airplane legal to fly missing one cowl flap? If I buy the aircraft can I get it home across the country missing it?
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Cost of a new one. It sounds like you can’t find one to buy. So you’ll have to have a new one made. Have you priced that? If he’s willing to pay for it, why not. What’s the story behind “…went missing..?” Stolen? Fall off?
 
luvflyin said:
Cost of a new one. It sounds like you can’t find one to buy. So you’ll have to have a new one made. Have you priced that? If he’s willing to pay for it, why not. What’s the story behind “…went missing..?” Stolen? Fall off?
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On the 182 from what I’m researching it doesn’t seem that crazy that a cowl flap, usually the right one, departs in flight. Plenty of threads that seem like the same issue. Safety wire on the hinge pin wears through and the pin works out. Likely should have been caught at annual, but….
 
MauleSkinner said:
Legal? I highly doubt it.

flyable? My guess is it would run hot.
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I would think it would run cooler since more air can escape the bottom of the cowl. Maybe not an issue in the summer.
 
Does the airplane meet its type design? No. So it's not airworthy. That cowl flap is part of the cooling system: it deflects prop blast downward when it's open, creating a vacuum to help pull air though the engine's cooling fins. Lose a cowl flap and you lose some of the cooling.

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Cowl flaps only fall off when they haven't been maintained, and that's an indication of some really poor annual inspections. If I were the OP I'd be looking not only at the other cowl flap, but the entire airplane. A good, thorough prebuy inspection is in order here. There will be a long list of snags, I'm sure.
 
Are things that bad in certified land that a fixed gear Cessna 100 series (production number circa 19,000ish?) cowl flap can't be sourced now without going on an Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Orphaned Ark excursion? We're screwed then, this thing jumped the shark.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Cowl flaps only fall off when they haven't been maintained, and that's an indication of some really poor annual inspections. If I were the OP I'd be looking not only at the other cowl flap, but the entire airplane. A good, thorough prebuy inspection is in order here. There will be a long list of snags, I'm sure.
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All of the above. I am a bit obsessive about the condition of our cowl flaps, because I've read too many horror stories of trying to find a new one. We are doing some type of maintenance on them at least every 3-4 years (hinge pin, rivet replacements, and at least once a new piano hinge). Just this past annual it was 3 or 4 rivets. Also need to watch the condition of the rubber isolator pad where it bolts on. That piece is fairly inexpensive, and goes a long way towards absorbing the vibration.
 
Supereri said:
My concern is the airplane legal to fly missing one cowl flap? If I buy the aircraft can I get it home across the country missing it?
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Legal, no. But you could legally fly it home under a Special Flight Permit (ferry permit) if you want. However, any decent salvage yard should have a useable cowl flap to get you home. Just make sure it fits your S/N as there are some differences.

FYI: there's several on Ebay. Just make sure the price is discounted for a new flap plus install costs. The part is not cheap new.
 
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Going to assume the current owner has been flying it sans cowl flap. In which case it's probably been running hotter.

Not privy to Cessna cowl flaps, but are they that complicated that they couldn't be an owner produced part?....if they're that hard to find?
 
Well, it allows you to limit what would be excessive drag when you don't need the cooling. Not sure of the 182 design, but on the Navion, the original didn't even have cowl flaps, just holes in the bottom of the cowl. That's not to say that if you have a plane equipped with them you can just fly with one gone.
 
Heck ya it would fly without the cowl flap. I mean a Cessna can fly while missing one wing.!!

(Ok, that might be taking it a little too far)

But how many times has someone forgot to close the cowl flaps while flying....


I write this without knowing the legal parts....
 
Supereri said:
So I’m thinking of buying a Cessna 182 that recently had a cowl flap go missing. The seller is looking for one now, but hasn’t found one yet. He’s talking about discounting the airplane the cost of a new one. My concern is the airplane legal to fly missing one cowl flap? If I buy the aircraft can I get it home across the country missing it?
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Mom said silence is golden and Mom was very smart. Would I fly it? Yes, as long as there were no overheating. It's hard to imagine a less safety critical part. However, has the owner priced a new Cessna part? He will be very shocked. But, used ones should be available
 
Racerx said:
Not privy to Cessna cowl flaps, but are they that complicated that they couldn't be an owner produced part?....if they're that hard to find?
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Compound curves, and two layers, with the internal being pretty complex.

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Not easy to duplicate that without the stamping dies. Or the -O alloy to allow the forming, then the complex heat-treating to harden it. Once could come up with something simpler that might work, but would it be close enough to the original to be legal?
 
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Racerx said:
but are they that complicated that they couldn't be an owner produced part?....if they're that hard to find?
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They're not hard to find and as I recall the same cowl flap crosses several variants. As to owner-produced, sure, provided you can obtain the approved data or approval to produce one. But a lot easier just to buy a used one.
 
Bell206 said:
They're not hard to find and as I recall the same cowl flap crosses several variants. As to owner-produced, sure, provided you can obtain the approved data or approval to produce one. But a lot easier just to buy a used one.
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Op made it sound hard is why I asked. My Google skills were lacking motivation as I don't own nor have a desire to own a Cessna
 
I'll call around tomorrow, but I've seen a thread or two where finding a used R/H cowl flap took some time. Rare, I don't think so, but it might take a bit to find a used one. That's my concern is that it will delay the purchase before one could be found and installed. Hence my question if we discounted the purchase for the price plus install could the plane be flown home 1100 miles. I'll talk to the seller tomorrow and see where we go.
 
I have one try to fall off mid flight in our club 182. The bracket that was holding it let go and was holding on by control cable. Was a bit banged up. We tried to find a replacement but ended up having to repair it.
 
One 182 ( 1964?) lost a cowl flap. Part of the mounting structure and some of the actuating cable also departed. A replacement could not be found so he went the
MTO ( made to order route ) . It was costly and took a lot of time.

As was said; ignoring loose rivets is not cost effective.
 
The market must be utterly nuts if someone is contemplating buying an aircraft with obvious airframe damage. Odin knows if you can get a replacement from Textron, not when.
 
Loud bang at night over WVA, cowl flap lever now at full open.

Returned IT to full closed, and observed that the oil temperature fell about 10 degrees, otherwise, no change in engine or aircraft performance. Oil temperature was still in the green arc, just lower.

Inspection of the pin in the other piano hinge found it was worn like a string of sausages, and about to fail. That pin was replaced, and a new flap was installed, along with the linkage damaged as the cowl flap ripped off.

Flying with a missing flap would seem to be no problem, overheating on the ground is a possible problem,

The cowl flaps on the 182 are essential to temperature control on the ground, with the prop stream sucking additional air flow through the engine room, but in flight,100+ knot airflow into the cowl opening does the job just fine. In cold weather, the flaps are kept closed to accelerate warm up.

Even in hot summer temperatures, I have never needed to leave the cowl flaps open at cruise altitudes (Normally, for me, above 5,000 feet).

Legal issues aside, don't start until you are ready to depart. Do your runup as soon as the oil temperature is in the green, restrict ground run time, and fly with confidence. If needed, regulate temperature with altitude.
 
Bell206 said:
They're not hard to find and as I recall the same cowl flap crosses several variants. As to owner-produced, sure, provided you can obtain the approved data or approval to produce one. But a lot easier just to buy a used one.
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spot on, as usual. the approved data part is the area that most people forget when saying owner produced part. since cessna will not likely let you have the drawings and data, that means getting a DER involved.
 
I can’t imagine overheating will be a problem in any phase of operation. It should run cooler, particularly the oil temp. If you believe otherwise fabricate a blocking plate. As for availability? Call Skywagon City. Always the best place to start for sourcing Cessna parts.
 
Whitney said:
That really doesn't look hard to make at all.

If you don't find one to buy, a fab shop will easily make you that.
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Have you ever made anything? I have decades of experience in making stuff, and that part would be a challenge. It's made of 2024-T3, but was formed from 2024-O material and then heat-treated after all the compound curves were done. That takes a special oven and a certification for the operator.

And you still need the forming dies. Beating it out by hand is a long-lost art. That sort of thing disappeared when forming presses came into wide use 100 years ago.
 
Whitney said:
That really doesn't look hard to make at all.

If you don't find one to buy, a fab shop will easily make you that.
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I run a fab shop and would balk at trying that myself...even if it was my plane. It's why I asked. Hours of hand forming at $115 an hour, since I don't have the dies. Then send out for heat treating. The part doesn't appear to be unobtanium. At least not to the point for me to consider attempting
 
If the proverbial nuclear cockroach of the hobby (high wing fixed gear 100 series cessnas) is already having owner-fab necessitating AOG issues, then this goose is cooooked.

You know what would be great? A conservation status code on the airplane trading sites that mimics those used by the IUCN. Seems rather apropos to me...
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When I explain this curator garbage to pedestrians, I have to use terms they understand. I tell them this is the equivalent of being fearful to drive my family's 1981 cutlass cruiser as a daily driver because I may lose a hubcap, by virtue of driving it. Except their loss makes it road illegal by the state; and they don't make the hubcaps anymore; and the state doesn't let me get them at Autozone; and Oldsmobile won't release the drawings for the hubcap; and the cutlass is insured for the price of a new Tesla. LOL


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(note the aftermarket rims.....scofflaw baby!):D

I don't follow the flat-billed, craft-beer-flying hipsters on the tubez, but do they talk about this as part of their "ambassador" influencer shtick? I do see them clowning around on experimental two-seaters mostly (aka playing the game in EZ setting). Truth in advertisement and all that...

Good luck to the owner in question. A 6.9 second search on the googlez does shows them available in varying levels of unverified damage and disrepair. But of course in facbuilt, only the right part number(s) is LEgAl, so who the heck knows.:dunno:
 
Dan Thomas said:
Have you ever made anything? I have decades of experience in making stuff, and that part would be a challenge. It's made of 2024-T3, but was formed from 2024-O material and then heat-treated after all the compound curves were done. That takes a special oven and a certification for the operator.

And you still need the forming dies. Beating it out by hand is a long-lost art. That sort of thing disappeared when forming presses came into wide use 100 years ago.
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Racerx said:
I run a fab shop and would balk at trying that myself...even if it was my plane. It's why I asked. Hours of hand forming at $115 an hour, since I don't have the dies. Then send out for heat treating. The part doesn't appear to be unobtanium. At least not to the point for me to consider attempting
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When i ran my fab shop I would laugh inside when I would get a call for this sort of thing... "Its a simple part" then you have to explain it really isn't!
 
C3flyer said:
When i ran my fab shop I would laugh inside when I would get a call for this sort of thing... "Its a simple part" then you have to explain it really isn't!
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Welcome to non-lurking POA! :cheers:
 
unsafervguy said:
since cessna will not likely let you have the drawings and data, that means getting a DER involved.
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Or there is using the field approval process as well. With the right ASI, no DER required.
 
Racerx said:
Is there an stc for that?
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In the case of the 182 the answer is yes. Airplains bolts sick 300hp applications to a pre restart 182. If they allowed lyco 540s in that generation i would chuck the arrow right yesterday and get one sight unseen.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Have you ever made anything? I have decades of experience in making stuff, and that part would be a challenge. It's made of 2024-T3, but was formed from 2024-O material and then heat-treated after all the compound curves were done. That takes a special oven and a certification for the operator.

And you still need the forming dies. Beating it out by hand is a long-lost art. That sort of thing disappeared when forming presses came into wide use 100 years ago.
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Are you sure a low stress part like this is heat treated? Is it so marked? Also it might be made of fiberglass with a field approval.
 
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