Cessna 177 Cardinal RG Crashes into Perimeter Fence on Final Approach

kell490

kell490

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k490
Pilot walked away said if he hadn't recently installed those shoulder harness's probably have ended differently. Wondering why anyone would not have shoulder harness.

 
Arnold said:
Short field approaches require steep approaches not shallow approaches.
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MauleSkinner said:
It’s amazing to me how many pilots disagree with that.
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I disagree with that. It depends on the field & the airplane. There is no "one size fits all" for *REAL* short approaches. You do what will work best for the short field you're trying to get into.
 
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Mtns2Skies said:
I disagree with that. It depends on the field & the airplane. There is no "one size fits all" for *REAL* short approaches. You do what will work best for the short field you're trying to get into.
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I should rephrase…it’s amazing to me how many pilots think steep approaches to short fields are always bad technique.

The good news is the overwhelming majority of pilots don’t need either short field technique.
 
Racerx said:
Because the smaller airports with a short field are getting shut down?
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Davis (W50) where this happened is actually growing and they are putting in a bunch of new hangars but I don't think a longer runway is in the cards. You'll get 2K and like it!
 
kell490 said:
Pilot walked away said if he hadn't recently installed those shoulder harness's probably have ended differently. Wondering why anyone would not have shoulder harness.

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Perimeter fences are always a hazard. Glider pilots are especially careful with these and I have heard of decapitations when hitting these. In fact, in the sailplane world, they recommend one aim towards the fence pole if one is about to hit a fence!

How well was the fenced marked? How visible was it? Yes, he came in low and slow, but without the fence I doubt he would have have needed his shoulder harness.

The airport needs to rethink the fence's placement and improve its visibility. The pilot needs to improve his approaches and rely less on shoulder harnesses.
 
The place I learned had a 3,200 ft runway (JGG). just "normal" to us...not short...not long

Once, the Langley AFB club relocated there for a month or so while the runway was re-paved, or some such thing.... Us students had some good times watching those folks on an uncontrolled "short" runway.
 
Racerx said:
Because the smaller airports with a short field are getting shut down?
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Because there are (and have been for years) almost no airports that are short enough to require it for most airplanes, and the pilots of airplanes that would require it typically don’t fly into those airports.
 
The good thing is no one was hurt planes can be replaced. Hopefully he gets the training he needs before he ends up killing himself and or someone else. Co-worker of mine hit powerlines was killed few years ago which were 100 feet high 1000 feet or more from the runway he was on final approach at night. Somehow he got too low he had recently gotten a new glass panel installed was on a quick test flight. Maybe he was messing with it got too low while being distracted.
 
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kell490 said:
The good thing is no one was hurt planes can be replaced. Hopefully he gets the training he needs before he ends up killing himself and or someone else. Co-worker of mine hit powerlines was killed few years ago which were 100 feet high 1000 feet or more from the runway he was on final approach at night. Somehow he got too low he had recently gotten a new glass panel installed was on a quick test flight. Maybe he was messing with it got too low while being distracted.
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Was that the C-182F at GYR? That was a neighbor in my hangar row. :(
 
Pilawt said:
Was that the C-182F at GYR? That was a neighbor in my hangar row. :(
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Yes Ben the crazy thing is the wires he hit were owned by APS the company he retired from and where I still work.
 
kell490 said:
Pilot walked away said if he hadn't recently installed those shoulder harness's probably have ended differently. Wondering why anyone would not have shoulder harness.
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I crashed in my Luscombe and didn't have shoulder harnesses. I ate the panel. It is expensive to add shoulder harnesses to some airplanes, but worth it.

Was a Cardinal was ever made without shoulder straps? I thought they all had them, safely stowed above your head! This one is a 1973 model and I'm sure they came with them.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I crashed in my Luscombe and didn't have shoulder harnesses. I ate the panel.
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My dad crashed his Ag Wagon WITH shoulder harnesses and still ate the panel (or at least, knocked his helmet off and gouged his forehead). It’s amazing how much the human body can contort.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I crashed in my Luscombe and didn't have shoulder harnesses. I ate the panel. It is expensive to add shoulder harnesses to some airplanes, but worth it.

Was a Cardinal was ever made without shoulder straps? I thought they all had them, safely stowed above your head! This one is a 1973 model and I'm sure they came with them.
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What is the typical cost about $1500?
 
What about the airbags? I was looking into those and will likely install a pair. Seems like a brilliant idea.
 
kell490 said:
What is the typical cost about $1500?
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I had mine installed for $750 for both doing none of the labor myself. Hooker harnesses we’re $250 a piece and install was straight forward.

I did it after my IA and I were chewing the fat and he told me how in his career he fixed two planes for families to sell after fatals and said the planes didn’t need much work. Both scrambled their egg in an otherwise relatively benign accident.
 
From the report:

''The pilot confirmed he got behind the airplane on final approach. He allowed his airspeed to degrade, and the airplane rapidly begin to sink, but he was too low to recover.'' ''He thought he was on target for a good approach for landing, but he did not see the impending stall.''

How was the airport or the fence at fault.??

I don't think the fence was tall enough to be marked or even to be considered an obstruction.

Mtns2Skies said:
There is no "one size fits all" for *REAL* short approaches. You do what will work best for the short field you're trying to get into.
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This is the best statement for short fields. I have been into many short, unimproved landing strips and off airport landings, and for me the steep approach worked on the majority of those landings. The steep approach allows the pilot to keep the airspeed up while reducing the amount of ground being covered, therefore reducing the rollout distance.

My personal favorites were landing during the turn to final, that is touching the left main wheel down while in the turn, straightening out and touching the right main wheel, then the nose gear then BRAKES.!!!
 
RyanShort1 said:
No excuse for destroying a Cardinal like that. How do you not know you're too low?
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He was behind the power curve and didn’t know it. Adding some power ain’t gonna stop the drop when you’re dragging it in like that.
 
wasn’t there two engines used on the Cardinal? One @ 160 and the other @ 180?
 
Says he wanted to install an AOA. I have one (it's actually an LRI) and it's a nice thing to have but no instrument will replace a pilot looking out the window and flying the airplane.

We had a thread on here recently about folks suggesting to fly the pattern with the stall horn blowing. I'll practice my slow flight a bit higher thank you.

BTW ... one source I looked at says a Cardinal needs 1135' to land over a 50' obstacle. I've never flown one so I have no idea. Obviously he had done this before ... guess he was just off his game ...
 
Himayeti said:
Perimeter fences are always a hazard. Glider pilots are especially careful with these and I have heard of decapitations when hitting these. In fact, in the sailplane world, they recommend one aim towards the fence pole if one is about to hit a fence!

How well was the fenced marked? How visible was it? Yes, he came in low and slow, but without the fence I doubt he would have have needed his shoulder harness.

The airport needs to rethink the fence's placement and improve its visibility. The pilot needs to improve his approaches and rely less on shoulder harnesses.
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Really?

Isn’t it clear yet that some people simply should not be allowed to fly airplanes?

I’m sure he’s a great guy, but to hit a six foot (?) fence that far from the threshold on a cobalt blue day means that he should buy a boat.
 
Mxfarm said:
wasn’t there two engines used on the Cardinal? One @ 160 and the other @ 180?
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The one in the accident discussed here is a 177RG, all of which were 200 hp.

As to the fixed-gear Cardinals, those built for the 1968 model year came with a 150 hp O-320. All succeeding years (1969-1978) had a 180 hp O-360. However, since Cardinal production fell off dramatically after the first year, over 42% of all fixed-gear Cardinals were the 1968 model with the smaller engine.
 
orca64 said:
Really?

Isn’t it clear yet that some people simply should not be allowed to fly airplanes?

I’m sure he’s a great guy, but to hit a six foot (?) fence that far from the threshold on a cobalt blue day means that he should buy a boat.
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I try to hold back, but yeah, he either needs more training or he should stop flying. If the fence hadn't been there, he still would have landed way short of the runway. An AOA indicator wouldn't have saved him.

On a separate note, we all make mistakes, but if you find yourself in a situation like this, let me pretend to be your lawyer... shut up, shut up, shut up. That's the only advice you need. Don't tell them you were just about to install an AOA, don't tell them everything felt normal until the unexpected sink rate... shut up! Get an aviation lawyer before you run your mouth. I didn't have a pretend lawyer and they used everything I said against me. They're not asking questions to comfort you. They're asking you questions to use against you!!! It only cost me some time taking training that had nothing to do with the accident, but it could have cost me more. I gave them something they could use to close the case. Shut up!
 
What would you expect the FAA to do with this pilot?
 
Lowflynjack said:
I try to hold back, but yeah, he either needs more training or he should stop flying. If the fence hadn't been there, he still would have landed way short of the runway. An AOA indicator wouldn't have saved him.

On a separate note, we all make mistakes, but if you find yourself in a situation like this, let me pretend to be your lawyer... shut up, shut up, shut up. That's the only advice you need. Don't tell them you were just about to install an AOA, don't tell them everything felt normal until the unexpected sink rate... shut up! Get an aviation lawyer before you run your mouth. I didn't have a pretend lawyer and they used everything I said against me. They're not asking questions to comfort you. They're asking you questions to use against you!!! It only cost me some time taking training that had nothing to do with the accident, but it could have cost me more. I gave them something they could use to close the case. Shut up!
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Hmmm. I'm not sure how well it would have gone if my *required* accident report to the FAA/NTSB had nothing in it. I'm not sure "shutting up" is really a very good choice.
 
Himayeti said:
Perimeter fences are always a hazard. Glider pilots are especially careful with these and I have heard of decapitations when hitting these. In fact, in the sailplane world, they recommend one aim towards the fence pole if one is about to hit a fence!

How well was the fenced marked? How visible was it? Yes, he came in low and slow, but without the fence I doubt he would have have needed his shoulder harness.

The airport needs to rethink the fence's placement and improve its visibility. The pilot needs to improve his approaches and rely less on shoulder harnesses.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the video? The fence isn't that close to the runway. He was on a flight path to the fence for at least the last 10 to 15 seconds before impact.

upload_2022-6-8_16-11-19.png

just before impact:
upload_2022-6-8_16-11-49.png
 
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Salty said:
Hmmm. I'm not sure how well it would have gone if my *required* accident report to the FAA/NTSB had nothing in it. I'm not sure "shutting up" is really a very good choice.
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You have to report it to the NTSB immediately. You don't have to give them a narrative immediately, just the info in section 1 below. You don't report it to the FAA. You have 10 days before you have to give a statement. Take your time and have someone review it.

The FAA may show up on the scene and start asking questions. This is where you shut up! You tell them you're extremely stressed from the accident and don't feel you should be answering questions.

The media may show up and start asking questions. You have nothing to gain by talking to them, but what you say can be used against you. This is where you shut up! Know your rights and use them.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap7_section_7.html
  1. Items to be Included in Notification. The notification required above must contain the following information, if available:
    1. Type, nationality, and registration marks of the aircraft.
    2. Name of owner and operator of the aircraft.
    3. Name of the pilot‐in‐command.
    4. Date and time of the accident, or incident.
    5. Last point of departure, and point of intended landing of the aircraft.
    6. Position of the aircraft with reference to some easily defined geographical point.
    7. Number of persons aboard, number killed, and number seriously injured.
    8. Nature of the accident, or incident, the weather, and the extent of damage to the aircraft so far as is known; and
    9. A description of any explosives, radioactive materials, or other dangerous articles carried.
  2. Follow-up Reports.
    1. The operator must file a report on NTSB Form 6120.1 or 6120.2, available from NTSB Field Offices or from the NTSB, Washington, DC, 20594:
      1. Within 10 days after an accident;
      2. When, after 7 days, an overdue aircraft is still missing;
      3. A report on an incident for which notification is required as described in subparagraph a(1) must be filed only as requested by an authorized representative of the NTSB.
    2. Each crewmember, if physically able at the time the report is submitted, must attach a statement setting forth the facts, conditions, and circumstances relating to the accident or incident as they appeared. If the crewmember is incapacitated, a statement must be submitted as soon as physically possible.
 
The FAA may show up on the scene and start asking questions. This is where you shut up! You tell them you're extremely stressed from the accident and don't feel you should be answering questions.
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Agree. I didn't call them until 4 or 5 days later. And yes, they had been eagerly awaiting my call.
 
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