How to handle a Terminal VOR in a Clearance?

That's a limited route ODP. All runways at the airport have ODPs. Some are diverse.
That’s really taking liberties with the letter P. To say that if an airport/runway passes a diverse departure assessment, so therefore an Obstacle Departure Procedure need not be published, all runways now have an ODP.
 
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That’s really taking liberties with the letter P. To say that if an airport/runway passes a diverse departure assessment, so therefore an Obstacle Departure Procedure need not be published, all runways now have an ODP.
Yes, you are correct. If only takeoff minimums are established for a given runway, without either a prescribed track or climb gradient, that runway does not have a ODP. Having said that, nonetheless even with a diverse departure runway, you cannot turn below 400, afe. So, is that a procedure?
 
Yes, you are correct. If only takeoff minimums are established for a given runway, without either a prescribed track or climb gradient, that runway does not have a ODP. Having said that, nonetheless even with a diverse departure runway, you cannot turn below 400, afe. So, is that a procedure?
I dunno. Yeah, turning before 400’ is something you are never supposed to do. On a SID, an ODP, or if having been given a heading to fly in a Diverse Vector Area. But to call that a Procedure in the vein of ‘P’ as in IAP or ODP I think is kind of a reach.
 
@midlifeflyer (Mark), if you file N51 - KABE (which is very popular because of DPEs), you will get in your clearance:

SBJ V30 LANNA V30 ETX DCT

Use GP or FF to verify.

Majority of departures are going to 22 (read: westerlies).

N90 will be expecting you to depart and make probably two left turns toward the SBJ VOR not join V30 immediately (which you can clearly do by joining R-274). They want you to head to a fix that is in their airspace, not Allentown's (KABE). As a result, when you check in with departure, they will ask you to join V30 or DIRECT LANNA but there have been n a few cases where folks had to go to SBJ first, i.e. backtrack. How do I know this? Talking to local pilots about it as well as talking to a NY controller directly.
Yes, of course that would be the clearance. But expecting backtracking makes absolutely no sense to me. You are at SBJ sitting on the ramp. If that is what ATC wants they must pull their hair out a lot. I can't imagine going up in the clouds and making a 360 over a VOR that can't be located before proceeding on course.
 
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Yes, of course that would be the clearance. But expecting backtracking makes absolutely no sense to me. You are at SBJ sitting on the ramp. If that is what ATC wants they must pull their hair out a lot. I can't imagine going up in the clouds and making a 360 over a VOR that can't be located before proceeding on course.

Mark, I completely agree with you. I dunno. This is what we are being told. This is what my CFII taught me when departing this airport on an IFR Clearance too for all the reasons I gave above.
 
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I dunno. Yeah, turning before 400’ is something you are never supposed to do. On a SID, an ODP, or if having been given a heading to fly in a Diverse Vector Area. But to call that a Procedure in the vein of ‘P’ as in IAP or ODP I think is kind of a reach.
I believe we are in agreement.
 
Mark, I completely agree with you. I dunno. This is what we are being told. This is what my CFII taught me when departing this airport on an IFR Clearance too for all the reasons I gave above.
I'm probably wrong, but it strikes me as one of those urban legends. Someone did something wrong, took the wrong lesson from it, and then passed it on.
 
I'm probably wrong, but it strikes me as one of those urban legends. Someone did something wrong, took the wrong lesson from it, and then passed it on.

I asked an N90 controller directly. They want you back at SBJ. Shrug.
 
I asked an N90 controller directly. They want you back at SBJ. Shrug.
I posted this on a pilot/controller forum. No controller response yet. One pilot who says he flies that route all the time and just intercepts the airway.

I can understand if NY wants to tag me up in NY airspace before handing me to Allentown. There are other situations where a border between facilities leads to special procedures, usually the result of an LOA between facilities.

We have one here. My home base, TTA, is on the border between Raleigh and Fayetteville TRACON. So much so that, although RDU is the only one listed on our approach charts, FAY (to the south) handles the approach to runway 3. And southbound departures. Pick up your clearance on the ground for a southbound flight, you call RDU, which will probably give you the FAY frequency to contact after departure. The locals "know" that if you pick it up in the air, don't bother calling RDU. Just call FAY. But that does not make doing the normal thing - calling RDU - "wrong."

There are also SIDs and ODPs that include an off route turn before proceeding on course. Not to mention VCOAs.

So, the concept of turning away is nothing new. ATC wanting you to remain in their airspace for initial call is understandable and not a problem. But that's not the issue you present with the basic clearance (sans departure instructions) you gave us. There is absolutely no way I would turn in a direction opposite to my cleared route without a specific ATC instruction - such as "upon entering controlled airspace, proceed direct SBJ" - to do so. If they want me back at SBJ, they'd better tell me that and not leave it to an "everybody knows..."
 
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Questions for controllers:

  1. When the airport lies within an airway, why not just "V30 ETX..."? Saying "Solberg" in the clearance seems to be confusing to those unwashed by experience, even though "Solberg" is part of the airport's name (Solberg-Hunterdon Airport).
  2. Those periods in the OP's posts don't come out over the radio, but if they come out in a display of the routing, why not N51 rather than SBJ? Again, for the unwashed.
  3. As an example, see the AIM section on Preflight:
    1. EXAMPLE-

      BWI V44 SWANN V433 DQO Spelled out: from Baltimore-Washington International, via Victor 44 to Swann intersection, transitioning to Victor 433 at Swann, thence via Victor 433 to Dupont.
  4. BWI is the identifier for that airport, BAL is for its VOR — not the same thing. The AIM must not want newbies circling back to the VOR there, I guess.
 
When the airport lies within an airway, why not just "V30 ETX..."?
Will the various computers involved recognize the airport as a fix on V30?

I'd file direct to the first fix along V30 from the airport then V30 ETX, etc. Event without RNAV, if the airway passes that close to the airport, I can navigate to that fix by intercepting the appropriate radial.
 
There’s a Controller joke. How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb. 10. One to screw it in and nine to tell him he how should have done it differently. We’ve just kinda seen something like that. I’m assuming @Trogdor is telling the truth about his conversation with a current N90 Controller. The situation we’re talking about here, the Clearance that is N51 SBJ V30 has nothing to do with “…turning in the ‘pattern’” like that guy said. Neither is it climb in a 360 ‘circle’ right overhead the airport in the cone of confusion. It means the first element in the Clearance is SBJ. Unless specific Departure Instructions are given, you maneuver as necessary to comply with the Clearance.
 
Questions for controllers:

  1. When the airport lies within an airway, why not just "V30 ETX..."? Saying "Solberg" in the clearance seems to be confusing to those unwashed by experience, even though "Solberg" is part of the airport's name (Solberg-Hunterdon Airport).
  2. Those periods in the OP's posts don't come out over the radio, but if they come out in a display of the routing, why not N51 rather than SBJ? Again, for the unwashed.
  3. As an example, see the AIM section on Preflight:
    1. EXAMPLE-

      BWI V44 SWANN V433 DQO Spelled out: from Baltimore-Washington International, via Victor 44 to Swann intersection, transitioning to Victor 433 at Swann, thence via Victor 433 to Dupont.
  4. BWI is the identifier for that airport, BAL is for its VOR — not the same thing. The AIM must not want newbies circling back to the VOR there, I guess.
That one has me scratching my head. Seems odd they wouldn’t have said KBWI if that is what they meant. The next example down is about Los Angeles and the airport and VOR are both LAX’s. And a clearance like that, departing with the first element of the Clearance being an airway, and that being a Jet Route just ain’t passing the logic check with me. Yes, the first element being an airway and you just depart and get yourself on the airway is a thing and was once not uncommon. But it actually being used nowadays I think would be real rarity. And I’m not sure the FAA’s computers would even accept it. @John Collins ? Will it accept an airway as the first element on a proposed from an airport Flight Plan.
 
There’s a Controller joke. How many Controllers does it take to change a light bulb. 10. One to screw it in and nine to tell him he how should have done it differently. We’ve just kinda seen something like that. I’m assuming @Trogdor is telling the truth about his conversation with a current N90 Controller. The situation we’re talking about here, the Clearance that is N51 SBJ V30 has nothing to do with “…turning in the ‘pattern’” like that guy said. Neither is it climb in a 360 ‘circle’ right overhead the airport in the cone of confusion. It means the first element in the Clearance is SBJ. Unless specific Departure Instructions are given, you maneuver as necessary to comply with the Clearance.
I actually got that from one of the controllers in the FB thread. "Upon entering controlled airspace, direct SBJ V30..."

I followed up with a practical question. Do you expect me to do A or B? No answer yet but I think that's where the confusion lies. The bottom line is you are at SBJ. Even if you weren't in the zone of confusion, you are passing less than 1/2 mile away from it - well within the tolerance of an up-to-6° off VOR receiver or a flyby GPS waypoint. Thinking it means a requirement to circle in the clouds so you can somehow do the impossible perfect pass over the exact center of the VOR is a complete misunderstanding. In fact, I doubt ATC's radar would be able to tell whether you passed exactly over it or not.

284477475_10166213703300167_1795762411492465286_n.jpg
 
...a clearance like that, departing with the first element of the Clearance being an airway, and that being a Jet Route just ain’t passing the logic check with me.
Why so? You can arrive on a jet route, so why not depart on one:

EXAMPLE-

  1. ALB J37 BUMPY J14 BHM Spelled out:
    from Albany, New York, via Jet Route 37 transitioning to Jet Route 14 at BUMPY intersection, thence via Jet Route 14 to Birmingham, Alabama.
Note that BHM is now Vulcan (VUZ).
 
Why so? You can arrive on a jet route, so why not depart on one:

EXAMPLE-

  1. ALB J37 BUMPY J14 BHM Spelled out:
    from Albany, New York, via Jet Route 37 transitioning to Jet Route 14 at BUMPY intersection, thence via Jet Route 14 to Birmingham, Alabama.
Note that BHM is now Vulcan (VUZ).
Yeah. Doesn't pass the logic check was a little harsh. I think there is some stuff about route structure transition though. When actually issuing the Clearance some more has to be said, like 'radials of J37' or sumpin like that.
 
...and yet, people are doing it. Insane. Seems he would have been closer without the U-Turn. I think you can even see the result of being too close to the VOR.

upload_2022-5-28_10-54-34.png
 
I actually got that from one of the controllers in the FB thread. "Upon entering controlled airspace, direct SBJ V30..."

I followed up with a practical question. Do you expect me to do A or B? No answer yet but I think that's where the confusion lies. The bottom line is you are at SBJ. Even if you weren't in the zone of confusion, you are passing less than 1/2 mile away from it - well within the tolerance of an up-to-6° off VOR receiver or a flyby GPS waypoint. Thinking it means a requirement to circle in the clouds so you can somehow do the impossible perfect pass over the exact center of the VOR is a complete misunderstanding. In fact, I doubt ATC's radar would be able to tell whether you passed exactly over it or not.

284477475_10166213703300167_1795762411492465286_n.jpg
You are on a runway at N51 when you depart. Yeah, SBJ is very close by. All the 4 miles either side of center line and +/- degrees of tolerance does not change the fact that if your Clearance is N51 SBJ V30, it's N51 SBJ V30. Not N51 V30. If you got violated, which I am sure would never happen. But lets play with the 'letter of the law' here just for the sake of discussion. You could try to play the I rolled right close by the VOR when I was taking off, maybe even rotated and was airborne by the time I was abeam it, card, so therefore I had already gone direct to SBJ before I even departed. I wouldn't try that.
 
...and yet, people are doing it. Insane. Seems he would have been closer without the U-Turn. I think you can even see the result of being too close to the VOR.

View attachment 107238
Yeah, it looked he was doin' it by the book and waited for the TO/FROM to flip. Ain't no law agin tucking it in that tight. You could also go out a few miles before turning back to SBJ. I might do it one way one day and another way another day. Would depend on all kinds of things. The plane I was flying, traffic, weather, ....
 
I actually got that from one of the controllers in the FB thread. "Upon entering controlled airspace, direct SBJ V30..."
That’s basically the one clearance and/or release instructions where I would expect to maneuver back over the VOR…if controlled airspace starts at 700 feet and I just proceed on course after takeoff, I’d be flying away from SBJ.
 
That’s basically the one clearance and/or release instructions where I would expect to maneuver back over the VOR…if controlled airspace starts at 700 feet and I just proceed on course after takeoff, I’d be flying away from SBJ.
So... you think the orange line makes sense and the yellow line passing within 2000' of the VOR is a violation of your clearance?

(..and, why not a right turn and make it really spaghetti?)

upload_2022-5-28_11-19-3.png
 
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You are on a runway at N51 when you depart. Yeah, SBJ is very close by. All the 4 miles either side of center line and +/- degrees of tolerance does not change the fact that if your Clearance is N51 SBJ V30, it's N51 SBJ V30. Not N51 V30. If you got violated, which I am sure would never happen. But lets play with the 'letter of the law' here just for the sake of discussion. You could try to play the I rolled right close by the VOR when I was taking off, maybe even rotated and was airborne by the time I was abeam it, card, so therefore I had already gone direct to SBJ before I even departed. I wouldn't try that.
In the odd chance I was deviated, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever saying I was already at SBJ as I took off and proceeded on course. The one and only reason SBJ is the name of the VOR and not the airport is that N51 doesn't have the stuff necessary for the letter identifier and you need to define the airway.
 
Where am I entering controlled airspace?
I have no idea where that plane reached 700 AGL. But I'm not sure it makes a difference since on an IFR day, Id be turning on course closer to 400 AGL (no takeoff minimums or ODP for that runway). Remember that the reason for "upon entering controlled airspace" is ATC's lack of authority over uncontrolled airspace.
 
In the odd chance I was deviated, I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever saying I was already at SBJ as I took off and proceeded on course. The one and only reason SBJ is the name of the VOR and not the airport is that N51 doesn't have the stuff necessary for the letter identifier and you need to define the airway.
Cool. I'm just going to leave of with something I said above in post #57.
"That after you departed, then asked Reading about it and they then gave you clearance to just join V39, does not change the fact that until then, your last Clearance received was LRP V39. If you think that means just join the airway somewhere along the first segment after the VOR, I would recommend you realign your thinking before flying in areas of steeply rising terrain."
 
I have no idea where that plane reached 700 AGL. But I'm not sure it makes a difference since on an IFR day, Id be turning on course closer to 400 AGL (no takeoff minimums or ODP for that runway). Remember that the reason for "upon entering controlled airspace" is ATC's lack of authority over uncontrolled airspace.
If my clearance was to enter controlled airspace direct to SBJ, I’d make a left 270-ish turn after takeoff from 13 rather than a right turn.

The other factor that may be in play here is the runway 31 ODP, which says to cross SBJ at or above 1300’. Maybe the conversation between the instructor and controller assumed runway 31, or maybe the controller had the impression that the ODP applied to any departure.
 
Cool. I'm just going to leave of with something I said above in post #57.
"That after you departed, then asked Reading about it and they then gave you clearance to just join V39, does not change the fact that until then, your last Clearance received was LRP V39. If you think that means just join the airway somewhere along the first segment after the VOR, I would recommend you realign your thinking before flying in areas of steeply rising terrain."
You mean like the 20 years I flew in Colorado? We're not talking about an ODP or even the 3 NM between KVUO and CBO. We're talking about an on field VOR.

I guess it's time to agree to disagree on this one. If I get something interesting out of the FB thread, I'll report it.
 
You are on a runway at N51 when you depart. Yeah, SBJ is very close by. All the 4 miles either side of center line and +/- degrees of tolerance does not change the fact that if your Clearance is N51 SBJ V30, it's N51 SBJ V30. Not N51 V30. If you got violated, which I am sure would never happen. But lets play with the 'letter of the law' here just for the sake of discussion. You could try to play the I rolled right close by the VOR when I was taking off, maybe even rotated and was airborne by the time I was abeam it, card, so therefore I had already gone direct to SBJ before I even departed. I wouldn't try that.
Where is the 'letter of the law' that says you have to pass exactly over a VOR in order to be in compliance with a clearance that includes that VOR? I haven't seen one.
 
You mean like the 20 years I flew in Colorado? We're not talking about an ODP or even the 3 NM between KVUO and CBO. We're talking about an on field VOR.

I guess it's time to agree to disagree on this one. If I get something interesting out of the FB thread, I'll report it.
Ok, thanks. KVUO CBO ??
 
Where is the 'letter of the law' that says you have to pass exactly over a VOR in order to be in compliance with a clearance that includes that VOR? I haven't seen one.
That isn’t what I meant. I was thinking it looked like he had VOR only and doing the TO/FROM must flip to ensure station passage thing. Yes, you can lead turns and ‘Flyby’ if you have the means to do so.
 
Maybe take a step back to see the bigger picture as it might look on the controller's radar display. What is the controller doing when he releases an IFR flight from N51?

He is protecting an area of airspace around the airport to provide separation for your departure, and for you to maneuver to join your course (V30), prior to establishing radar contact and switching to radar separation standards.

Does it make any difference to him if you turn directly to join V30 immediately (400' AGL after takeoff) vs. loitering in the vicinity of SBJ as you attempt to maneuver to recross it?

What if another airplane is waiting for you to get out of the way in order to begin his approach into, or depart from, N51? Which departure clears the N51 airspace sooner.

Alternatively, *IF* a course reversal to SBJ was required in order to maintain separation with other airspace or traffic, wouldn't the controller include such instructions with your departure instructions? (That's rhetorical. He would.)
 
That isn’t what I meant. I was thinking it looked like he had VOR only and doing the TO/FROM must flip to ensure station passage thing. Yes, you can lead turns and ‘Flyby’ if you have the means to do so.
My take is that you don't need the flag to flip to determine your location relative to an on-field VOR during the takeoff roll. If you had to determine your location more precisely than that to avoid obstacles, they would have published a detailed departure procedure for planes that meet the climb gradient.
 
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