Meigs 2.0?

Jackk said:
Would not make a huge difference, unless you have a police escort like a politician, police usually arrive after the crime has been done, with the exception of the traffic enforcement industry.

If a criminal targets you, the police will not be the person who saves you, that’s your job.
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I think the existence of law enforcement has a deterrent effect on some people. Also, I think businesses depend on the existence of a codified body of laws to a large extent. The laws defining what corporations are, and setting out their rights and responsibilities, would be an example. And corporations and other forms of business occasionally rely on the judicial branch of government in conjunction with the executive branch to enforce their intellectual property rights, as well as contractual rights.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think the existence of law enforcement has a deterrent effect on some people. Also, I think businesses depend on the existence of a codified body of laws to a large extent. The laws defining what corporations are, and setting out their rights and responsibilities, would be an example. And corporations and other forms of business occasionally rely on the judicial branch of government in conjunction with the executive branch to enforce their intellectual property rights, as well as contractual rights.
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Something would develop to replace it. Would have to. Broken contracts and all that, won't be long til words gets around on which businesses you stay away from, etc...
 
EdFred said:
Something would develop to replace it. Would have to. Broken contracts and all that, won't be long til words gets around on which businesses you stay away from, etc...
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Like concealed carry for protection, and yelp and google reviews to stay clear of bad businesses, plus litigation.
 
EdFred said:
Something would develop to replace it. Would have to. Broken contracts and all that, won't be long til words gets around on which businesses you stay away from, etc...
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True.

The mafia has always done pretty well when it comes to enforcing contracts, for example.
 
Jackk said:
Like concealed carry for protection, and yelp and google reviews to stay clear of bad businesses, plus litigation.
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Things that only help after the fact....
 
EdFred said:
Something would develop to replace it. Would have to. Broken contracts and all that, won't be long til words gets around on which businesses you stay away from, etc...
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Warlords?

Nations in which law and order have broken down are not reputed to be pleasant places to live or do business.
 
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Jackk said:
Like concealed carry for protection, and yelp and google reviews to stay clear of bad businesses, plus litigation.
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The development of the Internet that Yelp and Google exist on was funded by government.
 
Palmpilot said:
The development of the Internet that Yelp and Google exist on was funded by government.
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Lol, oh boy, and I’m sure the goverment is also responsible for all my successes in life

I paid for my sons college, so by that logic I was the one who should have his name on his degree? The gov wasn’t the only one working on it at the time, xerox had something pretty good compared to tcp/ip.



I’ll just see myself out now
 
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Jackk said:
Lol, oh boy, and I’m sure the goverment is also responsible for all my successes in life, I’ll just see myself out now
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What I'm arguing against is the idea that government is either all good or all bad. Life doesn't work like that.
 
Palmpilot said:
What I'm arguing against is the idea that government is either all good or all bad. Life doesn't work like that.
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I never said it was

I even mentioned courts and litigation in one of my posts.

Now for personal protection against things that go bump in the night, police are useless unless you’re connected enough to have your own security detail.

Same with the FAA, they can’t even answer a phone call or use logic, yet many view them with the utmost trust
 
Jackk said:
I never said it was
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You wrote "Lol, oh boy, and I’m sure the goverment is also responsible for all my successes in life." I never said they were.
 
Palmpilot said:
You wrote "Lol, oh boy, and I’m sure the goverment is also responsible for all my successes in life." I never said they were.
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Totally off topic...

Richard, I knew someone with your name 12 or so years ago in Auburn, WA. Are you the same guy that was working at the airport back then?
 
Palmpilot said:
Warlords?

Nations in which law and order have broken down are not reputed to be pleasant places to live or do business.
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I think that would depend on individual urban areas. I would think that urban centers where the people put their responsibilty in the government's hands rather than their own, and are the type where they as a whole believe the government knows best, or want more laws, and want more oversight are the places that would easily sway towards a warlord type rule. Yeah, I'm looking at you NYC, SF, CHI, DET, and LA. Easy to take over people that defer responsibility.

Places that are yellow on the sectional but still believe that the individual is responsible for himself, and not the government's responsibility probably do not fall into a warlord type of rule.

I have my thoughts as to why I think it would play out that way, but that would really shove the conversation into politics vs hypothetic.
 
Palmpilot said:
You wrote "Lol, oh boy, and I’m sure the goverment is also responsible for all my successes in life." I never said they were.
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It’s a similar mindset to the without the government there would be no internet
 
SCCutler said:
Don't talk silly-talk.

It is both healthy and wise to routinely challenge the scope and scale of governmental power; raising the issue is hardly the equivalent of advocating for the utter absence of governance.

The countervailing argument one might posit would be that we should simply accept, as proper and necessary, every single grasp of authority asserted by government, simply by virtue of the fact that it emanated from government. There are people who think that way, but (by and large) they tend to already be a part of the presumptively-anointed ones already.
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IBTL.

Oh wait - this is an administrator…:mad:
 
red4golf said:
Totally off topic...

Richard, I knew someone with your name 12 or so years ago in Auburn, WA. Are you the same guy that was working at the airport back then?
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No, I've been retired for at least 20 years.

I have discovered at least one other Richard Palm in every metropolitan area that I've lived in.
 
EdFred said:
Urban areas are less personal. You just can't possibly really know everyone that lives on your block. And when the personal connection goes bye bye, the amount that people give a **** about you goes down.
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Apologies if I misread it, but in case you were trying to say that rural is safer than urban, the facts don't back that up. Many of the counties with the highest per capita crime rates are rural counties. For some reason the legend didn't paste, but the darker the color, the more crime per capita in the county.

crime map.jpeg
 
172andyou said:
Apologies if I misread it, but in case you were trying to say that rural is safer than urban, the facts don't back that up. Many of the counties with the highest per capita crime rates are rural counties. For some reason the legend didn't paste, but the darker the color, the more crime per capita in the county.

View attachment 107145
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Not what I was saying, but here's the problem with per capita and low population as comparison: All it takes is 1 crime to spike the numbers for a given year. I used to live in a township (36 quare miles) where we had less than 300 people living in it. What does 1 domestic abuse case and conviction do to the per capita numbers? "This is the most dangerous place in the US!" Yeah, for one year, and not *really* a criminal hot bed. But that's not going to stop everyone from leaving their houses unlocked and saying "hey if you need to borrow anything the house is open.' You really think Compton is a safer place than somewhere like that?

What's the time frame on that map? Is that like a 20 year compilation or a snapshot from one year?

Edit: I see that's a 2014 map. Just one year. Can't go by just that. N is too small.

Edit 2: I still don't like the data because it's only 1 year, and I supposed I could try to go year by year, but this shows that rural is definitely less crime than in cities:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-2

Yeah, you'll always have outlier counties from year to year when something "big" happens to skew the numbers. But over 20 years it all shakes out. I suppose I could go year by year, but based on the 2 - 3 years I saw it fell in line with the 2019 numbers.

Edit 3: You can go through the yearly tables here and see that it's definitely safer in rural areas as a whole: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/
 
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172andyou said:
Apologies if I misread it, but in case you were trying to say that rural is safer than urban, the facts don't back that up. Many of the counties with the highest per capita crime rates are rural counties. For some reason the legend didn't paste, but the darker the color, the more crime per capita in the county.

View attachment 107145
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Some urban areas look pretty bad on that chart.
 
You also have to factor in whether the City, Town, Counties, ect report the Data to the FBI who run the UCR. Some do not. I know of one county in a high tourist area that will under report or not report data at all. They will even classify the crime to a lessor one so it wont have to be reported or report much lower. It is in their best interest to report it as a low crime area.
 
Jackk said:
You appear to have inferred it

“The development of the Internet that Yelp and Google exist on was funded by government.”
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Equating that with saying "without the government there would be no internet" would require ignoring the context of the discussion. Earlier in the thread, someone implied that we only succeed "IN SPITE OF" government. I've been providing examples in which government has made positive contributions to our success. That's not the same as saying that government is the only contributor. My position is that the government helps in some ways, and is a hindrance in some ways.
 
Palmpilot said:
Some urban areas look pretty bad on that chart.
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Yup. And some don't. And some rural areas look pretty bad on that chart. And some don't. :)

It's almost as if the issue isn't rural versus urban. :)
 
172andyou said:
Yup. And some don't. And some rural areas look pretty bad on that chart. And some don't. :)

It's almost as if the issue isn't rural versus urban. :)
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If you look at all of the rural vs all of the urban it definitely is rural vs urban. In some cases (I think robbery) urban is 10 times worse than rural. But one can always cherry pick exceptions.

When I get time I will do a 2009-2019 compilation.
 
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EdFred said:
If you look at all of the rural vs all of the urban it definitely is rural vs urban.
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Yes, if you decide only to look at the summary numbers it's "definitely" true. If you instead look at the 3000 counties in the US there are plenty of rural ones with crime problems and plenty of urban ones that don't because crime is vastly more driven by poverty, education, drugs and opportunity rather than how many people live in a given square mile. I have a buddy in a rural rust belt county in Ohio that has constant crime problems because of poverty and drugs. On the flipside, I was recently in one of the more well rated cities in Florida which, despite being about half a million people, has low crime thanks to money, education and lack of drugs.
 
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