Maintaining those licenses requiring CEU's...

Sac Arrow

Sac Arrow

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Snorting his way across the USA
I have had a managerial level water treatment plant operator's license for the last 25 years. I am around water treatment plants. I have operated water treatment plants.

I haven't just operated them. I design water treatment plants. That is my job. That is what I do day to day.

Here's the thing. In order to renew my water treatment plant operator's license, I have to do 36 hours worth of CEU units every three years. And I have, for the last 25 years.

It's stupid. I sign up for online courses, just do the tests, ace them, learn nothing, and get my CEU cert for renewal. I'm running out of options for online CEU courses since... I've been doing this for...25 years. I shouldn't be taking these courses. I should be teaching them.

I do absolutely NOTHING operationally, in a water treatment plant, that I can't do under my engineering license. Which, by the way, does not require CEU units for renewal. New stuff comes along. New regulations. New technology. I learn all of that, by necessity, and I do. And by the way, operators do the same thing, sans CEU's. The only thing I cannot do without a valid water treatment plant operator's license, is be named the responsible operator for day to day operations on a large scale water treatment plant. Which I don't do, don't want to do, and never will do. Well, I don't plan to, anyway.

Well my cert is up for renewal. Yes, I could go for another round of online crap that is basically the same material that has been addressed since day one and sure, I can knock out 36 CEUs in about a half hour if I just test out, but why.

I have done it for pride. I like operators. I like operations. Operators respect me. I respect operators. I like operators more than I like engineers, actually. But, at some point, I have to ask the question, why do it. Why continue on. It's a farce.

Maybe it does benefit the actual operators that actually operate plants, day to day. Keeps their knowledge fresh. There is a benefit to that. But...

Operators are in high demand. Really high demand. I mean, I have already stated that I don't intend on working for an agency as a named operator in responsible charge, but, I'm tired of this CEU ******** and they have just lost another senior operator due to it. I mean, I could change my mind, right.

So I guess for me, it's a resume bolster. No, it's a resume bolster for the company. I'm in wind down mode in that arena. Oh I'm not in wind down mode as an engineer, hell, I'll have to keep working until I keel over.

If I could pay someone $300 to give me a 36 hour CEU credit, no effort, I'd do it. Short of that, putting forth that effort is a waste of personal and professional time. So, I hate to say it, but Sayonara, Sacramento Arrow, Grade 4 WTO.
 
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Great rant!

What's a CEU?
 
you are not alone. My wife is a nurse and has several renewal courses. Be glad that you can do yours online. A lot of these things require class attendance, some with travel. My AI just came back from a seminar in Indiana, all at his expense.
 
I watched for years, my wife a speech therapist, my sister, a former CPA, and a former co-worker who's an architect...all slug through the CEU dribble for years. I've always found it disturbing that the majority of courses they'd take have absolutely ZERO with what they do in work. They'd only take the class either as a novelty, just because the timing was right, and or because the location was convenient. Never has it seemed to me, from the outside anyway, to make them any better at their professions. Basically it's a joke.
 
Hmmm…sounds like being a professional pilot…2 or 3 training/checking events per year at 3 or 4 days each, same test every time. 32 years so far.

And, oh, by the way, I’ll probably attend ground school from the front of the classroom next week. :rolleyes:
 
I hold two certs that require CEUs. Both give credit for practical experience (I do actively practice in my areas). Both also offer free webinars that provide credit, no testing required. Both also give credit for teaching/presenting on a topic.

It is what it is; at some point the letters after the name are either vanity or overkill (I have an acquaintance with 14 letters after her name).
 
Arm3 said:
Is that an option?
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I do, actually. When I was a staff engineer at a utility, I was giving operator math courses. And pretty much on every new plant startup, I am educating the junior operators in how to do chemical dosing calculations. The senior guys of course know how to do it, they just don't always know the easy way to do it.
 
Yeah, I maintain one cert that takes about 40 hours a year. PITA. Others that I've had I've just let expire, and list as "expired certifications" on my resume. I don't think either the cert or continued training is much of demonstration of knowledge as it is willingness to go along with the system, and time in the field. Oh yeah, and it's a serious money maker for the certification people.

I get the theory, people want their doctors/lawyers/technicians to be current in their field, but continuing ed doesn't accomplish that, in my view. You either care about what you do, and stay sharp, or you don't, but the paperwork doesn't affect that. Maybe I'm just a cynical old guy, though.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I do, actually. When I was a staff engineer at a utility, I was giving operator math courses. And pretty much on every new plant startup, I am educating the junior operators in how to do chemical dosing calculations. The senior guys of course know how to do it, they just don't always know the easy way to do it.
Click to expand...
It’s a bummer if they don’t let you apply that for credit towards your CEUs. I used to get credit for the annual 3 day simulator refresher if I taught it.
 
Albany Tom said:
… I get the theory, people want their doctors/lawyers/technicians to be current in their field, but continuing ed doesn't accomplish that, in my view...
Click to expand...
Kind of like how flight reviews don’t necessarily drive proficiency. At the pro level, your demonstrating to a check airman at routine intervals, no option to test out…

Cynical me says the cred providers who want to be worth their weight should demand practice-based recert on a routine basis.
 
I've been a CPA for 16 years and don't use the credential except as a resume enhancer and to give out terrible tax advice on POA. I do 40 hours of CPE a year just so I can say I'm a CPA. Like you, I question it every year. I keep doing it though.
 
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the mug. Our courses were in person meetings that took a couple of days every year. It was quite worthless as there were seminars (you had to have so many credits in certain categories to maintain your ratings) that were attended but no tests were given. They scanned your badge on the way in & out to prove you were there and stayed the whole time.

At the end of the conference(s) it seemed to me that they were more about making money (paid for by the employer) and threating to fine anyone not in full compliance with the regulations they had just bored us with for the last two days. Really glad that part of this life is over ...
 
17 hrs/yr for one
8hrs/yr for another
wife needs 37hrs/yr

We are really, really fortunate.
We both enjoy, look forward to CE (we got into our callings because we enjoy learning, full stop.)
We have access to literally tons of interesting & varied CE.
Much of it is completely free!
We can do it all online (we are remote, so doing it in my armchair beats 6-9 hours of driving.)

Here is something I never understood.
Why no CE requirements for A&P’s?
Seems like a safety-critical position, yet zero CE.
 
I put stuff on my resume that I WAS certified for at one time, because it’s a record of my experience. Just cuz you’re no longer certified doesn’t mean you don’t still know your stuff, and if required, you could do it again. I just make it known I was formerly certified.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
…
Here is something I never understood.
Why no CE requirements for A&P’s?
Seems like a safety-critical position, yet zero CE.
Click to expand...

Because, like a pilot, they have practical recency requirements to exercise their certificate.
 
TCABM said:
Because, like a pilot, they have practical recency requirements to exercise their certificate.
Click to expand...

?? I was wondering why A&Ps do not have a requirement for continuing education. The purpose of which is not primarily to establish legality, but to refresh and add to knowledge.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
?? I was wondering why A&Ps do not have a requirement for continuing education. The purpose of which is not primarily to establish legality, but to refresh and add to knowledge.
Click to expand...
The FAA doesn’t approve of additional learning. They require demonstration of the same knowledge and skills over and over and over and over…
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
?? I was wondering why A&Ps do not have a requirement for continuing education. The purpose of which is not primarily to establish legality, but to refresh and add to knowledge.
Click to expand...

Then the same concern should exist for pilots as there are no formal CE requirements to refresh and add to knowledge.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Here is something I never understood. Why no CE requirements for A&P’s? Seems like a safety-critical position, yet zero CE.
Click to expand...
There are but at higher regulatory levels like Part 135. I've fallen a sleep in enough. But as with most things at the basic Part 43 and Part 91 there is simply a self administered profiency requirement for APs. There was an attempt to pursue this when developing the new Part 66 years ago for mechanics but just like the idea of type rating APs the idea CE was dropped (along with Part 66) as it was determined it would not favorably pass the APA process on the economic side of the equation.
 
The old dog is the guy who needs recurrent training the most. Technology, laws, and methods change. The we always did it that way and I don’t need training doesn’t cut it. The problem is most recurrent training isn’t effective and is used just to check a box.
 
I have almost the same scenario for my (now part time) engineering profession. I got sick and tired of CEU's and the waste of money and time involved. Then I figured out a way to bypass the CEU nonsense. Every three years I just re-take the (online) exam for my certification. I know the material so well, and it takes about an hour and then I'm good for another three years. Re-taking the exam resets the clock on my CEU requirements.

In my case tye CEU's seem to be nothing more than money-maker for the organization. It aggravates me that I have to deal with this nonsense after 40 years in the profession.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I have had a managerial level water treatment plant operator's license for the last 25 years. I am around water treatment plants. I have operated water treatment plants.

I haven't just operated them. I design water treatment plants. That is my job. That is what I do day to day.

Here's the thing. In order to renew my water treatment plant operator's license, I have to do 36 hours worth of CEU units every three years. And I have, for the last 25 years.

It's stupid. I sign up for online courses, just do the tests, ace them, learn nothing, and get my CEU cert for renewal. I'm running out of options for online CEU courses since... I've been doing this for...25 years. I shouldn't be taking these courses. I should be teaching them.

I do absolutely NOTHING operationally, in a water treatment plant, that I can't do under my engineering license. Which, by the way, does not require CEU units for renewal. New stuff comes along. New regulations. New technology. I learn all of that, by necessity, and I do. And by the way, operators do the same thing, sans CEU's. The only thing I cannot do without a valid water treatment plant operator's license, is be named the responsible operator for day to day operations on a large scale water treatment plant. Which I don't do, don't want to do, and never will do. Well, I don't plan to, anyway.

Well my cert is up for renewal. Yes, I could go for another round of online crap that is basically the same material that has been addressed since day one and sure, I can knock out 36 CEUs in about a half hour if I just test out, but why.

I have done it for pride. I like operators. I like operations. Operators respect me. I respect operators. I like operators more than I like engineers, actually. But, at some point, I have to ask the question, why do it. Why continue on. It's a farce.

Maybe it does benefit the actual operators that actually operate plants, day to day. Keeps their knowledge fresh. There is a benefit to that. But...

Operators are in high demand. Really high demand. I mean, I have already stated that I don't intend on working for an agency as a named operator in responsible charge, but, I'm tired of this CEU ******** and they have just lost another senior operator due to it. I mean, I could change my mind, right.

So I guess for me, it's a resume bolster. No, it's a resume bolster for the company. I'm in wind down mode in that arena. Oh I'm not in wind down mode as an engineer, hell, I'll have to keep working until I keel over.

If I could pay someone $300 to give me a 36 hour CEU credit, no effort, I'd do it. Short of that, putting forth that effort is a waste of personal and professional time. So, I hate to say it, but Sayonara, Sacramento Arrow, Grade 4 WTO.
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Just do the courses. You don’t wanna take your whole career and just flush it down the toilet because you don’t like school do you.
 
Walmart greeters don’t have CEU requirements. Quit your job and go Be a Walmart greeter
 
I'm a civil engineer with Professional Engineer's licenses in 11 states. I have one state that doesn't require CEU's, but the rest want me to do 30 hours every two years. Some of those states want a log of my CEU's submitted when I renew, and others just want me to check a box on the form that says that I've fulfilled requirements and be ready for an audit if I get randomly selected. It's all a big pain in the ass.
 
luvflyin said:
Just do the courses. You don’t wanna take your whole career and just flush it down the toilet because you don’t like school do you.
Click to expand...

I would agree with you, if it actually had an effect on my career.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I put stuff on my resume that I WAS certified for at one time, because it’s a record of my experience. Just cuz you’re no longer certified doesn’t mean you don’t still know your stuff, and if required, you could do it again. I just make it known I was formerly certified.
Click to expand...
Hmm. Interesting perspective.
 
Sac Arrow said:
online CEU courses I shouldn't be taking these courses. I should be teaching them.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should.
It's better to give than receive...
CEU's are endless for me also. Sure seems like easy money for the websites that sell these courses.
 
luvflyin said:
Career caschmeer. I was just getting the flush down the toilet zinger in. I guess you work the clean side water treatment.
Click to expand...

Mostly, but both, actually. I’ve done a fair amount of WW work.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
..Why no CE requirements for A&P’s?
Seems like a safety-critical position, yet zero CE.
Click to expand...

Hi.
I agree that the A&P’s must have CE.
It's getting to the point that they will keep the pilots from being able to maintain currency , when they keep their planes grounded for weeks, months at the time, just because they do not know some of the equipment installed, how to set it up, unfamiliar with some of the new devices, have to ask others to complete the job...
In addition there seems to be a growing lack of responsibility, they will accept the job then do not follow the manufacturer's recommended procedures, they mark items as complete but they have not been done...
Something needs to change.
 
Lndwarrior said:
I have almost the same scenario for my (now part time) engineering profession. I got sick and tired of CEU's and the waste of money and time involved. Then I figured out a way to bypass the CEU nonsense. Every three years I just re-take the (online) exam for my certification. I know the material so well, and it takes about an hour and then I'm good for another three years. Re-taking the exam resets the clock on my CEU requirements.

In my case tye CEU's seem to be nothing more than money-maker for the organization. It aggravates me that I have to deal with this nonsense after 40 years in the profession.
Click to expand...

See you are on to something. I finished the Grade 4 WTO exam in like a half an hour and aced it. If I let my license lapse past the grace periods, I can simply retake the exam which is another half an hour commitment (more like twenty minutes these days) and I'm good to go.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi. I agree that the A&P’s must have CE. It's getting to the point that they will keep the pilots from being able to maintain currency , when they keep their planes grounded for weeks, months at the time, just because they do not know some of the equipment installed, how to set it up, unfamiliar with some of the new devices, have to ask others to complete the job... In addition there seems to be a growing lack of responsibility, they will accept the job then do not follow the manufacturer's recommended procedures, they mark items as complete but they have not been done...Something needs to change.
Click to expand...
FWIW: Don't quite follow how CE would correct the issues you list. There are zero maintenance based CE programs that I'm aware of that would even touch such issues. Perhaps if you could offer some specific examples and how CE would fix these problems I might be able to offer some options. But A&P CE as it stands is not one of them.
 
It's such a paradox; so many A&Ps act as if the entire pool of A&Ps are perfect (and owners working on their own planes are idiots) yet we continue to hear so many stories of A&Ps effing things up! (so do owners, I know)
I'm an A&P and I would like CE. I think it might help bring some A&Ps up to snuff.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I'm an A&P and I would like CE.
Click to expand...
FYI: there has been continuing education for A&Ps for decades. While it doesn't teach personal integrity and other similar topics as I commented on above, it does provide specific instruction for a number of aviation mx topics. And as an incentive to seek out this CE training the FAA instituted an awards programs back in 1991 in AC65-25 which is now rightly named the Bill O'Brien AMT Awards Program. Some of the courses are free and some have a cost especially those given by an OEM or 3rd party vendors. A good starting place is with the FAA courses at faasafety.gov at the link below. There are also a number of seminars and webinars out there that are considered CE as well. If you dig deep enough there are even more opportunities to learn. However, CE does not make the mechanic. If the person turning the wrench is not up front with themselves on their limitations, provide an honest service, and most importantly know and follow the rules, there is no amount of CE that will fix that mind set.
https://faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_catalog.aspx?view=AMT
 
Your complaint that you could teach these courses sounds like me talking to my boss every year when getting him to pay for my attendance at the IEEE International Symposium on EMC. We were required by our employer to get training each year and he would suggest taking classes from consultants. I'd tell him that I could teach those classes and he'd sign off on going to the symposium each year. Much easier now, I just have to get my bosses approval, and as an independent consultant I am the boss. :p
 
Sac Arrow said:
If I could pay someone $300 to give me a 36 hour CEU credit, no effort, I'd do it. Short of that, putting forth that effort is a waste of personal and professional time. So, I hate to say it, but Sayonara, Sacramento Arrow, Grade 4 WTO.
Click to expand...

Don't feel too bad about it, you're getting off easy... I had a situation where I had to deal with both the Federal and California DEA in keeping my license active. One would think the having one (Federal) would be good enough for the other (California) - nope.

Being the optimist that I am I did meet some interesting characters in the mandatory bi-yearly MOC classes. which turned out to be war and whopper fish stories with three hour lunches most of the time..
 
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