Boeing Air France

Really curious on this one. I assume they were flying the approach with the autopilots on when something went wrong. I would assume an autopilot disconnect would have happened immediately but it sounds like they continued to fight things for a bit?
 
Given that it was Air France, they probably just didn't understand how to properly operate the aircraft.
 
Sensationalism ... as it appears the crew did exactly what they needed to do when things didn't go as planned.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The article is vague and poorly written.
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You mean, like…
Audio recordings from the incident appear to show a panicked cockpit attempting to avert a potentially deadly situation as the pilots then engaged the plane to abort the landing, the Daily Mail reported.
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Good thing the pilots were there to calm the cockpit down so the airplane could be engaged.
 
Rumor they loaded the wrong approach in the FMS. Aircraft did not perform as expected so they initiated a go around but failed to retract the first notch of flaps prior to raising the gear. This resulted in two cockpit horns going off and added to the confusion.
 
Jeff767 said:
Rumor they loaded the wrong approach in the FMS. Aircraft did not perform as expected so they initiated a go around but failed to retract the first notch of flaps prior to raising the gear. This resulted in two cockpit horns going off and added to the confusion.
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As far as the audio goes that doesn't really seem to match the timing of what we hear. There would be no reason for the AP to swerve left if the wrong approach was loaded. They seemed to be struggling with the controls and the master warning went of before they initated a go around. Also sounds like the AP disconnect wailer at two different times. Will wait for the report on this one.
 
If you loaded 26R in the FMS and were in headed mode with LNAV armed the aircraft would capture the inbound to 26R. Not likely to be even noticed by tower if 10 miles since they don’t run parallel approaches to those runways. If however you dialed 26L in the ILS and ignored the warning the aircraft would turn hard left if approach was armed and the loc captured. The turn would be away from the displayed magenta line.
 
Jeff767 said:
If you loaded 26R in the FMS and were in headed mode with LNAV armed the aircraft would capture the inbound to 26R. Not likely to be even noticed by tower if 10 miles since they don’t run parallel approaches to those runways. If however you dialed 26L in the ILS and ignored the warning the aircraft would turn hard left if approach was armed and the loc captured. The turn would be away from the displayed magenta line.
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Maybe, but that would be hard to do in the 777. The localizer frequency gets loaded based on what approach you pull from the FMS database. So if they loaded the approach to 26R, the localizer frequency for 26R would get loaded. In the 757, that would be a possibility since you have to manually tune the localizer frequency, but not in the 777 (at least not in ours… I can’t imagine any of the others are different).
 
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midwestpa24 said:
My job requires doing a lot media relations. You can give them a straight up cut and paste type of press release, and they will still misquote it. Knowing that, it makes you really skeptical of any news media.
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I’ve always had this idea about mainstream media and how if they screw up something that I know about (aviation) badly, how can I trust them with an article on a subject I know nothing about.

Literally last week, I learned that this exact idea has a name. “Gell-Mann Amnesia.”


“Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this. …

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. … You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. …

You read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. …

In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. … But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. … The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.”
​
I have to remind myself constantly to not fall into this trap.
 
My father used to say, "don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." Seems these days those numbers are quite generous!" :dunno:
 
Sluggo63 said:
I’ve always had this idea about mainstream media and how if they screw up something that I know about (aviation) badly, how can I trust them with an article on a subject I know nothing about.

Literally last week, I learned that this exact idea has a name. “Gell-Mann Amnesia.”


“Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this. …

Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. … You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. …

You read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know. …

In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. … But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. … The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.”
​
I have to remind myself constantly to not fall into this trap.
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I never thought about it in those terms, but that’s very valid.
 
The name always bothered me: "main" stream media. The idea being there was some alternate "backroad" media that was somehow different. Doesn't matter if it's Walter Cronkite or the Slippery Rock Sentinel - they're all selling toothpaste advertisements.

The bias in media isn't towards or away from accuracy (or left/right) the bias is towards access to otherwise restricted information, and toward whatever will garner more eyeballs.
 
Hector Parra said:
Another angle from Juan:
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As soon as he went over the weather, I wondered if these guys had set up for an autoland and the critical area wasn’t protected.

As far as the apparent “struggling” who knows. It does sound worse than I initially thought it would when I read the story. He’s right about the warning horns and how they work.

I think the French will probably sort this one out pretty quick.
 
The QAR has been downloaded. There were no aircraft issues. It was a crew problem.
 
.....and why does this poorly written article about a Boeing 777 finish with a photo of an Airbus 380?

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
.....and why does this poorly written article about a Boeing 777 finish with a photo of an Airbus 380?

-Skip
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Maybe as a hidden message to Boeing to disallow pilots from sharing the stick like on Airbuses? Although that has also caused problems.

But seriously, if these French pilots also fly Airbuses, they could have fallen into the trap of believing that they were on a 350 and therefore not checked that there were two on the yoke?
 
Katamarino said:
Given that it was Air France, they probably just didn't understand how to properly operate the aircraft.
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My thoughts exactly.

I have a funny suspicion that it was something like altitude was set incorrectly and there airplane was continuing to descend when they expected it to level off.
 
Skip Miller said:
.....and why does this poorly written article about a Boeing 777 finish with a photo of an Airbus 380?

-Skip
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just be thankful it wasn’t a Cessna.

so the PM tried to fly without taking the controls. Pretty straight forward, having 2 PF and no PM is not the way.
 
I don’t think we have enough info to make any judgement.

JMHO
 
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