Why is the CAP so understaffed?

Back when I was a kid, I joined the CAP for a few weeks. All we did was practice marching and played volleyball, neither of which I was good at or had interest in. Then we had to go on a mile run, which I was even less interested in. I didn't go back after that.

Fast forward a few years, and there was a douche canoe of a CAP pilot where I worked pumping gas at the FBO. He'd march into the FBO with his flight suit on and wearing his aviator sunglasses and regale the suckers with tales of flying some sort of fighter. He'd call up on the radio as "CAP Flight 6969" or whatever to ask for fuel, saying he was in a "Tango 41". Well sir, you need to tell us a tail number, and no one knows what a "Tango 41" is, but we sure know what a 172 is!

My airplane was tied down across from the local CAP plane, and there were times I'd be out there dinking around with my airplane when they were doing the same thing. I'd try to be friendly, but except for one of them, they would all just ignore me. One guy was friendly and we'd chat, but everyone else was running around with their noses in the air. They'd also take FOREVER to do their checklists. I bet it takes them 30 min from the time they shut the door till they takeoff.

My brother was in the CAP for a long time, got to do some cool things like going for a KC-135 ride, and attended some sort of survival school where he had to kill a rabbit. Glad I didn't go there, I would have starved, but had a cool pet rabbit in my final hours.
 
red4golf said:
I now know where you fit on the continuum...
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I seriously doubt that. I haven’t given my resume here, just my current status. If you can infer my position on a continuum (of what?) based on the fact that my new job demands a lot of time, then I’m very, very surprised.
 
What exactly does CAP do these days? I was part of a squadron for a while back in the late 90s and we mostly just chased 121.5 ELTs that were going off in people basements or on the ramp. That went away when the 121.5 ELTs stopped being monitored by the AFRCC. Other than parking planes at local air shows I never saw our wing do anything else. Any real natural disaster relief was already covered by one of the dozens of non profit groups and a young eagles flight day did more to promote aviation than CAP did over an entire year. I never really understood the point of the taxpayers spending all that money to keep CAP going when it really doesn’t serve a useful purpose today. I ended up leaving after 2 years because I wasn’t interested in being part of a fake military group and a diddn!’t see enough going on to justify staying. For those still in it, what exactly does your squadron still do?
 
In NC, there’s a few major missions.

most of the recent missions have been to support emergency management, state and federal, air and ground. We haven’t had a hurricane in many years, but when we do, CAP is used for damage assessment and monitoring flood conditions. We did a LOT to support logistics in distributing Covid supplies.

CAP also works with the Army to train new air controllers. The army will set up a forward base at a county airport then control CAP pilots in and out. Because the Army is always getting new people, they need to train new controllers pretty regularly.

feels like I’m missing something…
 
I joined CAP a few years ago, It just wasn’t for me. Unless your military, you get put off to the side. Everything is a hurry up and wait situation. Things happen when they want, no room for ideas or streamlining, most of the daily dealings do not make any sense, but I know that’s how the military works
Way too much b.s.
A new ex military pilot joining CAP will get priority over non military that has more flying time,
The senior squadron, big boys playing with there toys

the search and rescue portion has some fine merits though. That’s the best part of CAP
 
Ive been a CAP member since 2009. I would say my participation is fair to middling and i do vacillate between wanting to help and just wanting to quit (the paperwork to get a plane in the air is really a hindrance). That said, I am always impressed with the polite and focused kids. We are lucky in our squadron that we have very involved parents who want the cadet program to work. Neither of my kids wants to join, but I am happy to give the occasional orientation ride, when asked.

There are definitely problems with CAP, but there are problems with all organizations that involve humans. I try to focus on the the good parts, and ignore the frustrating parts. One good part: if you are a CAP pilot, you get the maxed-out version of foreflight. That finally made me like foreflight.
 
My exchange with CAP235 yesterday:

CAP235: “DM tower CAP235 with you, full stop”
Me: “CAP235 report left base, runway three zero”
Observes 172 entering downwind, turning base, turning final, then 20 feet before touchdown…
Me: (heavy sigh over frequency) “CAP235 runway three zero cleared to land. Long landing approved to exit alpha two.”

I’m not a fan
 
We recently had a commander in the Iowa wing visit our EAA chapter. Talked about lot's of opportunities to fly, thankfully he also talked about all of bureaucracy and junk. Mentioned a story about how they were giving glider flights and for some reason (I think temperature) they had to run a request for the cadets to just wear PT gear all the way up to the highest level of CAP. All that along with having to wear a uniform anytime you fly and other potential militaristic stuff noped me right out.

It has the potential and opportunity to serve a great purpose but being a para military group is a huge disservice.
 
Groundpounder said:
They'd also take FOREVER to do their checklists. I bet it takes them 30 min from the time they shut the door till they takeoff.

My brother was in the CAP for a long time, got to do some cool things like going for a KC-135 ride, and attended some sort of survival school where he had to kill a rabbit. Glad I didn't go there, I would have starved, but had a cool pet rabbit in my final hours.
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30 minutes? Try over 90 min from the time you arrive at the office at the airport until wheels up. Which is why I'll never be a CAP pilot. I wanted to get checked out in the 172 so I could do cadet orientation rides but couple of the idiots trashed it early this year. A day or so after a snowstorm, runway was plowed but large snow piles along the side. Somehow, (no one is admitting how) they groundlooped a 172 and trashed it. Both wing tips crunch up, prop totaled, etc. I'm content to sit in the back as a Scanner and tell the pilot where to go.

On the other hand, in Colorado, CAP is part of the official state emergency plan. The State's Pilatus runs thousands of dollars an hour, must cruise fairly high. CAP 182s on the other hand, can do searches at 500-1000 AGL and we're really cheap because the crew are all volunteers. A few years ago, USAF decided that CAP and JROTC are potential-pilot streams. Older cadets are eligible for PPL training, many take advantage of the program.

I make sure I get a flight a couple times a year to maintain flight crew status. But my primary gig is External Aerospace Education. In other words, I do nothing inside CAP, but work with schools and organizations to promote the many programs such as CyberPatriot (cyber security competitions for middle and high schools - over 9,000 teams at this point, all over the world), Drones and RC, rockets, STEM curriculum, teach an Intro to Aviation to middle & high school kids from various organizations once a month, etc. I'd much rather deal with a group of CAP cadets than any of the Boy Scout troops around here.

Hence I never see or get involved with the problems described in some of the postings here. I belong to a senior squadron but only make it to meetings once every couple years (the advantage of teaching evenings of the scheduled meetings.....evil laugh) Rural and low economic schools are eager to use the STEM materials because it's free and high quality (your tax dollars at work, thank you)

Yes, I've seen the problems at OSH - and was annoyed. Senior male members looking like they slept in the uniforms and hadn't shaved in days, no one managing the kids, etc. Do the cadets get a bit over eager at air shows (USAF Academy coming up...CAP will be there as ushers and such) but that's what they've been told to do. It's a safety issue, and they take it seriously. As for the flight suits, a few wear them, but most of us wear the navy polo shirt and grey jeans. The cadets wear BDUs unless at a formal event, such as ushering at the military cemetary, or the State Capitol, etc.

Back in 2014, Colorado had massively destructive floods. CAP was flying 6-8 hrs a day taking photos for insurance, FEMA, etc. Sitting in the back seat of a 182 for 2-3 hours in the Colorado summer is not fun. When FEMA honchos came to town, it was CAP that flew them around the damage. When 9/11 hit, it was CAP that was transporting blood to NYC and DC (that in the end, wasn't needed), and still does in rural areas. When hurricanes hit the SE, it's CAP that's taking the photos for damage and looking for survivors. In Colorado during 2020 (COVID), CAP managed one of the largest facilities receiving, organizing and delivering PPE. Why? Because many of our members are trained (and already experienced) in Logistics. If interested, members are eligible for the FEMA emergency training regarding hazardous materials, incident management, and so on. We're cheap and reliable. What more can you ask?

Summary - far too many people only experience or see the problems. But isn't that true of far too many organizations?
 
kmacht said:
What exactly does CAP do these days? I was part of a squadron for a while back in the late 90s and we mostly just chased 121.5 ELTs that were going off in people basements or on the ramp. That went away when the 121.5 ELTs stopped being monitored by the AFRCC. Other than parking planes at local air shows I never saw our wing do anything else. Any real natural disaster relief was already covered by one of the dozens of non profit groups and a young eagles flight day did more to promote aviation than CAP did over an entire year. I never really understood the point of the taxpayers spending all that money to keep CAP going when it really doesn’t serve a useful purpose today. I ended up leaving after 2 years because I wasn’t interested in being part of a fake military group and a diddn!’t see enough going on to justify staying. For those still in it, what exactly does your squadron still do?
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Depends entirely on the state. Friends in NY have never been on a real flight mission, only training flights. In Colorado, there's usually a real mission every week to 10 days. During disasters (usually weather), multiple missions every day. As for the taxpayer's funding, it's such as small line item in the USAF budget, it really takes much digging to find it. Almost petty cash in the context of the Federal Government.
 
bflynn said:
In NC, there’s a few major missions.

most of the recent missions have been to support emergency management, state and federal, air and ground. We haven’t had a hurricane in many years, but when we do, CAP is used for damage assessment and monitoring flood conditions. We did a LOT to support logistics in distributing Covid supplies.

CAP also works with the Army to train new air controllers. The army will set up a forward base at a county airport then control CAP pilots in and out. Because the Army is always getting new people, they need to train new controllers pretty regularly.

feels like I’m missing something…
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In Colorado & New Mexico, CAP are the "targets" to train new drone controllers...
 
I've said it before: My time in the CAP (1964-1968) as a cadet was great.
I had 276 rescue sorties, and a lot of practice rescue ops. I flew almost every weekend. I went to Glider, Power and Jet Encampments, flew to Montreal (St. Hubert) twice, where we competed in the International Drill Competition. Flew to the Redstone Arsenal, to Washington, DC, worked a bunch of airshows and public events, made a bunch of friends with whom I am still in touch, weekly. I even got to be an escort for a couple of lovely young ladies at the Ambassador's Ball in NYC my last 2 years. It shaped who I was and what I became.
When I got out of the Air Force I went back to college to add a few more letters to my name, had a family and no time for anything else. When I finally had time to myself I went to the local CAP squadron, and realized, yet again, you can never go home. No rescue work. In fact no one in the squadron had EVER done any rescue work. And one guy was the self installed gatekeeper for access to the airplanes. If you weren't part of the clique, you couldn't fly.
I don't do clique.
Sad. It used to be a great program.
 
Shepherd said:
...When I finally had time to myself I went to the local CAP squadron, and realized, yet again, you can never go home. No rescue work. In fact no one in the squadron had EVER done any rescue work. And one guy was the self installed gatekeeper for access to the airplanes. If you weren't part of the clique, you couldn't fly.
I don't do clique.
Sad. It used to be a great program.
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It's not like that at all around here.
 
Katamarino said:
I found a squadron close by when I lived in Pittsburgh. They didn't mind that I wasn't interested in the bureaucracy and military games, and they were happy to have someone to fly orientation flights. I logged a lot of hours in their G1000 C182 with minimal hassle.
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I can’t believe the CAP would let a dirty foreigner such as yourself operate such a sophisticated piece of military equipment!
 
DavidWhite said:
I can’t believe the CAP would let a dirty foreigner such as yourself operate such a sophisticated piece of military equipment!
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They did have to get special permission from HQ for me to join and learn all their secrets:D
 
pfarber said:
Y="bflynn, post: 3244609, member: 11472"]So a decade being a Marine makes you an expert on search and rescue, emergency management support, airborne photography, and public interaction missions? Maybe you could have stowed the attitude and tried to learn something?

To the contrary, you have obviously looked back. And you have an irrational anger about the past. When you were a child, were you jealous of your father's affection for your mother?
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Lighten up, Francis.

Prior/career military can spot jack offs a mile away. And the CAP seems to be the warm moist breeding ground for most of the usless mold that run the units. Yes. Most CAP units are that bad.

When a good program is ruined by wannabes or worse, has beens, the only real losers are the kids that get soured by the experience.

Most CAP units are dumpster fires run by people that have zero ability to do anything but start dumpster fires.[/QUOTE]


You said it better than I could.
 
JFK Humphries said:
I am retired USAF and I remember working with the CAP back in the mid 1980’s and they, or that outfit seemed to be a coherent group that had their act together.

I recently went to one meeting as a favor for a friend and it was a shambles. The Cadets were overweight and they had beards and tattoos all over them. It would have been ridiculous but I remember when they had their act together. Actual CAP staff running around playing USAF. Even the so-called commander’s who had no college, not a day in uniform (active or reserve).

telling me to call them Sir or Mam. It’s just like you don’t even have 10 years in CAP and you are mad that you are only a CAP Major.

Think twice before you get involved with these people.
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That’s what happens when you have funding and no clear mission.
 
After 22 years in the Navy, I have a strong aversion to "scheduled" meetings, bureaucratic red tape, and self-important stuffed shirts. Having had a run in with a flight suit and sunglasses wearing CAP 182 driver did nothing to impress me either. No thanks!
 
Katamarino said:
They did have to get special permission from HQ for me to join and learn all their secrets:D
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One of the reasons....all the senior members get FBI background checks. Partly because CAP has very expensive equipment, partly because we have so many cadets (youth protection and all that) and, as mentioned earlier, we are cheap flying targets for various military training.

But in reality, it's so he could learn the secret handshake...and where we keep the beer. :D
 
Groundpounder said:
Back when I was a kid, I joined the CAP for a few weeks. All we did was practice marching and played volleyball, neither of which I was good at or had interest in.
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Did they make you play in jeans and no shirt?

a/k/a the Top Gun Experience.
 
wilkersk said:
After 22 years in the Navy, I have a strong aversion to "scheduled" meetings, bureaucratic red tape, and self-important stuffed shirts. Having had a run in with a flight suit and sunglasses wearing CAP 182 driver did nothing to impress me either. No thanks!
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Exactly. I got lucky enough to fly my whole 20 years in the Navy. When I retired I missed getting to fly the fighting drumstick a couple times a week but missed zero of the rest of the bureaucracy. I'd love to help the mission but no way I'd put up with what I see the CAP requires. The first time someone tried to make me do training that didn't directly involve the mission or planes that would be the end of me.
 
Pugs said:
Exactly. I got lucky enough to fly my whole 20 years in the Navy. When I retired I missed getting to fly the fighting drumstick a couple times a week but missed zero of the rest of the bureaucracy. I'd love to help the mission but no way I'd put up with what I see the CAP requires. The first time someone tried to make me do training that didn't directly involve the mission or planes that would be the end of me.
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What specific training requirements do you object to?
 
Palmpilot said:
What specific training requirements do you object to?
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Hard for me to say since I'm not in CAP but when I look at the USN current list of mandatory training you can be sure I want nothing to to with it. Until I retire (<6 months) I already have to do a significant subset of this training at two federal customers and my company for 20+ years not to mention the 20 years in the Navy. I've had my fill of it.

Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) Awareness
Cyber Awareness
Counterintelligence Awareness and Reporting
Records Management
Suicide Prevention
Anti-Terrorism Level 1
Privacy Act
Combating Trafficking in Persons
Domestic Violence Prevention and Reporting
Energy Policy
Equal Opportunity, Harassment and Resolution Options
Operations Security
Personal Financial Management
Sexual Health and Responsibility
Traumatic Brain Injury
 
Pugs said:
Hard for me to say since I'm not in CAP but when I look at the USN current list of mandatory training you can be sure I want nothing to to with it. Until I retire (<6 months) I already have to do a significant subset of this training at two federal customers and my company for 20+ years not to mention the 20 years in the Navy. I've had my fill of it.

Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) Awareness
Cyber Awareness
Counterintelligence Awareness and Reporting
Records Management
Suicide Prevention
Anti-Terrorism Level 1
Privacy Act
Combating Trafficking in Persons
Domestic Violence Prevention and Reporting
Energy Policy
Equal Opportunity, Harassment and Resolution Options
Operations Security
Personal Financial Management
Sexual Health and Responsibility
Traumatic Brain Injury
Click to expand...
Right there with you. Just another bs jobs program within the dod. No Value Added, but you better do it, or else. And don’t forget Defense acquisition university.
 
Pugs said:
Hard for me to say since I'm not in CAP but when I look at the USN current list of mandatory training you can be sure I want nothing to to with it. Until I retire (<6 months) I already have to do a significant subset of this training at two federal customers and my company for 20+ years not to mention the 20 years in the Navy. I've had my fill of it.

Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) Awareness
Cyber Awareness
Counterintelligence Awareness and Reporting
Records Management
Suicide Prevention
Anti-Terrorism Level 1
Privacy Act
Combating Trafficking in Persons
Domestic Violence Prevention and Reporting
Energy Policy
Equal Opportunity, Harassment and Resolution Options
Operations Security
Personal Financial Management
Sexual Health and Responsibility
Traumatic Brain Injury
Click to expand...
I've seen emails from CAP headquarters that were intended to raise awareness of some of those subjects, but I don't recall mandatory training programs on them. The only non mission-related training I recall is cadet-protection training, which seems justified because CAP allows children to join, and customs and courtesies, which seems justified because we do have occasion to interact with members of the military sometimes, and also because the cadet program is often a stepping stone to a military career. It's possible that I may have forgotten something over the past thirty years, however.
 
Why is there so much animosity about people wearing flight suits? I recommend wearing bags around everywhere. They are stupid comfortable and have pockets in all the right places. We had a name for people who complained about other people wearing their green (or tan) PJs to work in the Navy. We called them SWOs. They were mostly bitter about prior poor life decisions though.
 
CAP's Pacific Region requires nomex flight suits for search missions due to the terrain in this part of the country. A member of a local squadron probably wouldn't have survived a post-crash fire in the Sierra Nevada Mountains if he hadn't been wearing one.
 
Pugs said:
Hard for me to say since I'm not in CAP but when I look at the USN current list of mandatory training you can be sure I want nothing to to with it. Until I retire (<6 months) I already have to do a significant subset of this training at two federal customers and my company for 20+ years not to mention the 20 years in the Navy. I've had my fill of it.

Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) Awareness
Cyber Awareness
Counterintelligence Awareness and Reporting
Records Management
Suicide Prevention
Anti-Terrorism Level 1
Privacy Act
Combating Trafficking in Persons
Domestic Violence Prevention and Reporting
Energy Policy
Equal Opportunity, Harassment and Resolution Options
Operations Security
Personal Financial Management
Sexual Health and Responsibility
Traumatic Brain Injury
Click to expand...

I'm a federal contractor now and am only half way through the list of trainings you just posted. FML!
 
Rich Holt said:
Why is there so much animosity about people wearing flight suits? I recommend wearing bags around everywhere. They are stupid comfortable and have pockets in all the right places. We had a name for people who complained about other people wearing their green (or tan) PJs to work in the Navy. We called them SWOs. They were mostly bitter about prior poor life decisions though.
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I miss wearing my tank NOMEX. It is roughly the same as the flight PJs but a little thicker. The NOMEX gloves are also thicker because they do tear easily but man were they comfortable.

I was tasked with picking up a VIP from a local FBO in Seattle because I was the only one that knew where it was. I walked in looking for the crew of the C-12 and promptly walked up to a CPT and MAJ in flight suits asking where the COL was. They looked slightly embarrassed and pointed to their C182 and told me the Army guys came in, grabbed the crew car and were out looking for food.
 
Rich Holt said:
Why is there so much animosity about people wearing flight suits?
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Because when push comes to shove they're just flying a C-172 / C-182 that everyone else is flying wearing normal clothes in, in warmer climates sandals, shorts, t-shirt. Then you see someone walk out to the ramp in full flight gear like they're getting in a Mach 2 fighter jet. It doesn't help the whole make-believe delusion of grandeur. A dress code / uniform I understand. But a flight suit?! Give me a break.
 
EdFred said:
Same reason I don't wear a firesuit, HANS device, and helmet while going to get groceries in the ground vehicle.
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I've never seen a CAP member wearing a HANS device or helmet either on duty or off, and around here, if there's a place to change, most of us take off the flight suit when off duty.

It's not animosity, it's that you (and by extension, the rest of us) look like a tool.
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I can't think of a reason to care about that.
 
Tantalum said:
Because when push comes to shove they're just flying a C-172 / C-182 that everyone else is flying wearing normal clothes in, in warmer climates sandals, shorts, t-shirt. Then you see someone walk out to the ramp in full flight gear like they're getting in a Mach 2 fighter jet. It doesn't help the whole make-believe delusion of grandeur. A dress code / uniform I understand. But a flight suit?! Give me a break.
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I wear what they tell me to wear.

I just wish they would quit changing the uniforms.
 
Pugs said:
Hard for me to say since I'm not in CAP but when I look at the USN current list of mandatory training you can be sure I want nothing to to with it. Until I retire (<6 months) I already have to do a significant subset of this training at two federal customers and my company for 20+ years not to mention the 20 years in the Navy. I've had my fill of it.

Sexual Assault Prevention and Response (SAPR) Awareness
Cyber Awareness
Counterintelligence Awareness and Reporting
Records Management
Suicide Prevention
Anti-Terrorism Level 1
Privacy Act
Combating Trafficking in Persons
Domestic Violence Prevention and Reporting
Energy Policy
Equal Opportunity, Harassment and Resolution Options
Operations Security
Personal Financial Management
Sexual Health and Responsibility
Traumatic Brain Injury
Click to expand...


Uh huh. And that entire list has almost nothing to do with actual job performance and almost everything to do with reducing corporate liability.
 
I am genuinely surprised by the vanity of the grown adults that happen to fly aircraft on the side. Imagine caring about if the guy next to me thought I looked like a "tool" because I chose to be comfortable. Why should that matter to me? Who died and made him the flying fashion police?

That being said, I've never actually worn a flight suit while flying a GA plane. I can imagine that the boots would be a bit of a challenge to manage.
 
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