No one logs PIC time.

Rgbeard

Rgbeard

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rgbeard
So, I guess I'm bored and just kicking around ideas in the hollow space between my ears. That's what hangar talk is for, right?

How could we set up a scenario where NO ONE is able to log PIC time?

Try this:

Pilot A is within flight review times, and has a current 3rd class medical
Pilot B is same

Pilot A says: "I'm feeling a little unsure of myself. Can you ghost me on the controls?"

Pilot B does this from take off through the subsequent 3 patterns with touch and goes followed by a full-stop. Pilot B makes minor adjustments continuously through the flight. Pilot A says: Thanks so much, you made me feel better just being here. Now I'm good-to-go!"

No one gets PIC. ???
 
You and a student pilot go for a ride. She manipulates the controls, you do not. You are not an instructor.

You take me for a ride in your twin and let me manipulate the controls...
 
It doesn't even have to be that convoluted.

A student pilot , say almost ready for the checkride, goes up with a friend who is a private pilot (current, etc.). The student does all the flying. Nobody logs PIC.
 
I think the student pilot and private pilot scenario the private pilot still logs.

virtually any flight nobody can log if nobody wants to log. I don’t think the flight is legal unless someone can log pic.

from a legal standpoint you are the manipulator of the controls just as you would be with the autopilot on.
 
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Salty said:
I think the student pilot and private pilot scenario the private pilot still logs.

virtually any flight nobody can log if nobody wants to log. I don’t think the flight is legal unless someone can log pic.
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Under 61.51, logging of PIC requires manipulation of the controls. In this scenario, the Private pilot never touches the controls. The student pilot can't log PIC because they are not rated for the airplane, and they're not solo.

A flight isn't legal unless someone can ACT as PIC. Nobody needs to be able to LOG PIC.
 
I don’t think you can abrogate your responsibility of the controls as a non instructor. The student can’t legally be sole manipulator if you’re in the plane.
 
Salty said:
I don’t think you can abrogate your responsibility of the controls as a non instructor. The student can’t legally be sole manipulator if you’re in the plane.
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The private pilot still has the responsibility, has to act as PIC, and is the one to land in deep doo-doo if something goes wrong, but there is no requirement to actually touch the controls.
 
Salty said:
I don’t think you can abrogate your responsibility of the controls as a non instructor. The student can’t legally be sole manipulator if you’re in the plane.
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You're conflating two different things. The private pilot would certainly be responsible for the safe outcome of the flight. But if the Private pilot doesn't actually touch the controls during the flight (and there isn't a regulation requiring them to anyway), then the student is by definition the sole manipulator.

Anybody can manipulate the controls. I've let my daughter, at as early as age about 7, be sole manipulator for many minutes at a time during flight. Were I not a CFI, technically that period of time I could not log as PIC. But it's perfectly legal.
 
Salty said:
I don’t think you can abrogate your responsibility of the controls as a non instructor. The student can’t legally be sole manipulator if you’re in the plane.
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You've been a forum member for 6 years and somehow missed all the hundreds of logging vs. acting PIC threads in that time?
 
I’ve been trying to find an Faa definition for “sole manipulator” with no luck.

I understand your arguments and I do not disagree, but I don’t think what I’m saying conflicts. It’s looking at it from another angle. How exactly are you fulfilling your duties as PIC if you never touch the controls? You are still PIC when you are solo and not touching the yoke but that doesn’t mean you aren’t still sole manipulator of the controls. When you let your daughter fly, you are still sole manipulator from a legal standpoint. JMO
 
dmspilot said:
You've been a forum member for 6 years and somehow missed all the hundreds of logging vs. acting PIC threads in that time?
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See last post. I understand the points clearly and do not disagree from that angle. It’s a thread with a silly premise (no offense meant), I’m just being devils advocate to some degree, but I really do think *someone* has to be able to log for the flight to be legal.

  • You’re solo and take your hands off the yoke - you’re still the sole manipulator from a legal perspective even while you aren’t actually manipulating the controls
  • You’re solo and turn on the auto pilot - you’re still the sole manipulator from a legal perspective even while you aren’t actually manipulating the controls
  • You have a non-rated passenger and let them control the plane - you’re still the sole manipulator from a legal perspective even while you aren’t actually manipulating the controls
You can’t let go of the yoke just before crashing or breaking a reg and then claim you weren’t pic because you weren’t sole manipulator of the controls.
 
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There is an old Chief Council ruling out there that says if the person manipulating the controls cant log PIC the acting PIC may.
 
every time I don’t put a entry in my logbook I don’t log PIC time.
 
What about the sole manipulator of the pilot in command.
 
Ok, so you have a hot air balloon.

That said balloon has two burners to heat the air. Each burner is operated with a separate control. You named your balloon Super Ranger 71. You attach a 200 ft long tether to Super Ranger 71, and stretch it full length into the wind. You and a passenger jumps in. You pull on the burners and Super Ranger 71 slowly departs the ground. A light wind slowly drifts Super Ranger 71, and 30 minutes later you have traveled 400 feet across the ground, and land successfully.

So can you log:

Multi time since there are 2 burners with separate controls?

Cross Country time.??

PIC since a tethered balloon is still an aircraft.??

Do you shorten Super Ranger 71 in your logbook to SR 71.??

Does zeldman need to get a life.??
 
Easy... Pilot takes their unrated friend up flying. He's current, everything's all legal. For whatever goofy reason, pilot falls out of the plane, in mid-air. Now, the unrated passenger can legally fly the aircraft under the "break whatever rule you need to in an emergency rule", but they can't log the time as PIC, because they're not rated.

Before anyone jumps up and says this is impossible, it's only a half step away from the nimrod that jumped out of the plane with fire extinguishers strapped to himself. If he had an equally bright friend, who was a stow-away in the back of the plane, the above could have played out. And would have made an even better story if he successfully landed the plane.
 
Salty said:
I’ve been trying to find an Faa definition for “sole manipulator” with no luck.
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It depends on the context.
I’ve been told that under Part 135, radios are a flight control.
In a two-pilot airplane, half the flight controls aren’t.
 
RussR said:
It doesn't even have to be that convoluted.

A student pilot , say almost ready for the checkride, goes up with a friend who is a private pilot (current, etc.). The student does all the flying. Nobody logs PIC.
Click to expand...

If you are the private pilot in this scenario you are absolutely 100% PIC.
 
EdFred said:
As previously stated an old CC ruling disagrees.
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I am unaware of such. There was a "decree" from that AFS-1 idiot John Lynch that said that, but he was frequently wrong and the FAA made him start including disclaimers with his opinions that he didn't represent an official view of the agency.
 
flyingron said:
I am unaware of such. There was a "decree" from that AFS-1 idiot John Lynch that said that, but he was frequently wrong and the FAA made him start including disclaimers with his opinions that he didn't represent an official view of the agency.
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I suspect that Mr. Fredrick is referring to the 1977 Thomas Beane letter that has circulated in various forms (but not with an actual signature)
"Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g. airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft.'

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ic-vs-log-pic-sfar-73.8628/page-2#post-110566

https://static.prod01.ue1.p.pcomm.n...1df55ffca61491aa0205ff-faa-ltr---pic-time.pdf
 
dtuuri said:
So, the Barefoot Bandit could log the time? Colton Harris Moore - Wikipedia
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No, because 61.51e(1) and the "draft" CC ruling linked above* require the logger to be a rated pilot, and 61.51e(4) covering student pilots requires a solo endorsement.

* to me, an unsigned document of such nature is a "draft" document. Without a signed version, we have no idea if the document was changed before publication, rejected, discarded, reconsidered, etc. And it doesn't appear on the FAA's Chief Counsel website anyway (and there are some letters from 1976, so it's not just "too old" to be on the website).
 
Yeah, it's the 1977 Beane letter. Trouble is, as sensible as it is, there is no way to verify its authenticity. I've had a copy since 2002 and got it from a source I happened to trust - a former FAA employee who said it was part of the unreleased internal database. But it's not in any standard collection of FAA interpretations, including this one:
upload_2022-4-8_12-14-37.png
 
I guess if you have close to $7000 burning a hole in your pocket. So glad Thompson is selling us stuff we legitimately already own. Don't get me started on how bad Thompson is to work with. Used to be a subscriber for other services.
 
Albany Tom said:
Easy... Pilot takes their unrated friend up flying. He's current, everything's all legal. For whatever goofy reason, pilot falls out of the plane, in mid-air. Now, the unrated passenger can legally fly the aircraft under the "break whatever rule you need to in an emergency rule", but they can't log the time as PIC, because they're not rated.

Before anyone jumps up and says this is impossible, it's only a half step away from the nimrod that jumped out of the plane with fire extinguishers strapped to himself. If he had an equally bright friend, who was a stow-away in the back of the plane, the above could have played out. And would have made an even better story if he successfully landed the plane.
Click to expand...

This sounds like the only legal way. I guess the pilot could just become incapacitated and it would be the same thing.

What if the passenger uses the Garmin Autoland though? Is the plane its own PIC?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yeah, it's the 1977 Beane letter. Trouble is, as sensible as it is, there is no way to verify its authenticity. I've had a copy since 2002 and got it from a source I happened to trust - a former FAA employee who said it was part of the unreleased internal database. But it's not in any standard collection of FAA interpretations, including this one:
View attachment 105988
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Umm…YGTBSM! People actually subscribe to that? :eek::confused:
 
RyanB said:
Umm…YGTBSM! People actually subscribe to that? :eek::confused:
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At this point I doubt it. The publication is used by aviation lawyers and this is "legacy" printed edition. I really don't recall them being that expensive, maybe a large buy in for the existing volumes and an annual update fee substantially less than shown. Of course now it's digital*. A lawyer with a Westlaw subscription that includes their federal regulatory library gets this too. Last I checked a subscription for just the federal regulatory library (I let mine lapse this past year) runs about $700-$800 per year.

(*Maybe they are charging a huge fee for paper to get rid of the remaining troglodytes. West was a pioneer in the computerized research field. WestLaw was available to me as a law student in the mid-1970s)
 
So if nobody logs PIC time, did the flight even really happen?
 
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