luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
That one was priceless. Are those guys still around? Haven't seen one of those in a while?
Abusive Vectoring
- Thread starter Palmpilot
- Start date
That one was priceless. Are those guys still around? Haven't seen one of those in a while?
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,224
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Not sure. I haven’t seen anything new from them in awhile.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I was on FF this weekend and Approach said, "I'm going to need you to deviate 20* either left or right, your choice, for skydiving over Lexington." I told her I chose left. Was that a suggestion? An instruction? A vector? Some here would say I didn't have to do anything. Some would say I could just cancel FF and barrel straight ahead.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Large turbines are supposed to be contained. The San Francisco B was redesigned a few years ago. They had come up with a bunch of new Arrival/Approach Procedures that did not keep traffic in the B. Oops. So they had redo the B. Result was it was freed up more space for more VFR traffic.
b. The size and shape (laterally/vertically) of the Class B airspace will vary depending upon operational requirements. However, each Class B airspace must reflect the most efficient and reasonable configuration to contain large turbine− powered aircraft while achieving a higher level of overall safety.
c. All IFR procedures used by large turbine− powered aircraft arriving and departing designated airports must be fully contained in the Class B airspace. Each Class B airspace should be configured to ensure the most efficient use of airspace.
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 5,855
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
Turbine aircraft are not required to be contained. Per the above quotation, the Class B design must be "reasonable" and must fully contain "IFR procedures" — that means published procedures, not e.g. vectoring, visual approaches, etc. They can be vectored outside of B but the controller must advise the crew when this occurs.
That...was embarrassing.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not true, heavy jets can be set up for a 30 mile final. Traffic does not descend into the top of the Bravo, charlie or delta for that matter, they enter from the sides. 3,000 and up are dangerous places to be hanging outside of a bravo or charlie.
I'm telling you guys and gals, opposing bases gives real good explanations of what is going on from the ATC side. It's stuff that is generally not discussed in pilot training, but really gives great insight as to why ATC does what it does.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yeah. Of course you get in from somewhere. Once in, it is expected to stay contained in. Traffic does enter Bravos descending in from above. Happens hundreds of times a day at Los Angeles. Probably lotsa other places to. Do you have the episode, and hopefully the time where it starts, about this?
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
There's a clip in March 21st episode, you'll have to find it yourself.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you have a citation about that, "...can be vectored outside of B but the controller must advise the crew when this occurs..." Not arguing, I believe it, just can't find it.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
They don't have that one up yet. March 14, OB220 is the latest.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I listened to the March 21st episode on Saturday, it doesn't have an episode number since it's a compilation of clips from earlier episodes. I use google podcasts.
Be careful, this is not an easy topic here where a 30 second sound clip will things up. There is a lot of gold in that episode, little tidbits that make conversing with ATC easier, plus understanding what they are doing helps understand that "abusive vectors" is not a thing. Sometimes ATC does things for reasons we can't figure out while we are up there, getting upset about it raises your risk level plus any one near you if you don't react rationally.
One example that happens quite a bit in the delta I fly out is that there is a line for vfr GA traffic and a line for heavier traffic at the hold short line. Sometimes you will be number 1, ready to go and a jet will be taxiing 100 yards away to the hold short line. The controller will clear that guy to go ahead of you. If you are ignorant as to what is going on, you'll think the big guy is getting preferential handling and the controllers are dissing you. In reality the jet has some type of edict time he must meet to get into the system (airborne) or he'll get delayed. You need to have patience.
Be careful, this is not an easy topic here where a 30 second sound clip will things up. There is a lot of gold in that episode, little tidbits that make conversing with ATC easier, plus understanding what they are doing helps understand that "abusive vectors" is not a thing. Sometimes ATC does things for reasons we can't figure out while we are up there, getting upset about it raises your risk level plus any one near you if you don't react rationally.
One example that happens quite a bit in the delta I fly out is that there is a line for vfr GA traffic and a line for heavier traffic at the hold short line. Sometimes you will be number 1, ready to go and a jet will be taxiing 100 yards away to the hold short line. The controller will clear that guy to go ahead of you. If you are ignorant as to what is going on, you'll think the big guy is getting preferential handling and the controllers are dissing you. In reality the jet has some type of edict time he must meet to get into the system (airborne) or he'll get delayed. You need to have patience.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Do you know if they'll post it eventually?
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
@Radar Contact . If what @MPB said in post #59 is true, "...you would find inbound 737's under the class B shelf just off the lakeshore..." then it sounds like you guys may taking planes in the Bravo out, and then back in. If so, what's the policy about this?
dmspilot
Final Approach
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
- Messages
- 5,855
- Display Name
Display name:
DISPLAY NAME
FAA Order 7110.65W, 7-9-3 b.
"Inform the aircraft when leaving and reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for spacing."
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ah Ha. I didn't think to look in Chapter 7. Visual. Thanks. Here it is for those interested.
b. Vector aircraft to remain in Class B airspace after entry. Inform the aircraft when leaving and reentering Class B airspace if it becomes necessary to extend the flight path outside Class B airspace for spacing.
NOTE−
14 CFR Section 91.131 states that “Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine-powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which a Class B airspace area is designated must operate at or above the designated floors of the Class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area.” Such authorization should be the exception rather than the rule.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
midwestpa24
En-Route
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2016
- Messages
- 4,987
- Display Name
Display name:
midwestpa24
Not always, I can tell you that. Try flying around the south side of the Chicago airspace. If you are VFR at 8,000 at KELSI, you will be dodging SW 737s going into Midway like crazy. They are below 10,000 entering the Class B, granted they are going into MDW instead of ORD.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
The FAA agrees with Lindberg. They explain it in the attached interpretation letter, which states, in part:
Section 91.123 deals with compliance with ATC clearances and instructions. Section
91.123(b) states: "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."
Pilots flying in controlled airspace must comply with all ATC instructions, regardless of
whether the pilot is flying VFR or IFR, in accordance with§ 91.123(b). ATC instructions
include headings, turns, altitude instructions and general directions. The Pilot/Controller
Glossary of the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) defines A TC instructions as
"[d]irectives issued by air traffic control for the purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific
actions; e.g., Turn left heading two five zero,' 'Go around,' 'Clear the runway."' See AIM,
Pilot/Controller Glossary. In contrast, the Glossary defines advisory as "[a]dvice and
information provided to assist pilots in the safe conduct of flight and aircraft movement."
Id.
A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to
communicate with ATC; however, if a pilot is communicating with ATC and ATC issues an
instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.
91.123(b) states: "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an
ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised."
Pilots flying in controlled airspace must comply with all ATC instructions, regardless of
whether the pilot is flying VFR or IFR, in accordance with§ 91.123(b). ATC instructions
include headings, turns, altitude instructions and general directions. The Pilot/Controller
Glossary of the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) defines A TC instructions as
"[d]irectives issued by air traffic control for the purpose of requiring a pilot to take specific
actions; e.g., Turn left heading two five zero,' 'Go around,' 'Clear the runway."' See AIM,
Pilot/Controller Glossary. In contrast, the Glossary defines advisory as "[a]dvice and
information provided to assist pilots in the safe conduct of flight and aircraft movement."
Id.
A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to
communicate with ATC; however, if a pilot is communicating with ATC and ATC issues an
instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.
There is an earlier interpretation letter that says an ATC vector is not a clearance to enter class B airspace. Hence my question to the controller as to whether I was cleared:
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a
clearance under § 91.131(a)(1) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The
issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from
ATC to enter the subject airspace.
clearance under § 91.131(a)(1) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The
issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from
ATC to enter the subject airspace.
Unfortunately, that same letter goes on to claim that a vector for traffic is not an instruction. That contradicts the later letter, but I have no desire to be required to show up in court to defend that concept.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,224
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Well technically there is no required separation from skydiving ops unless we’re talking TFR at an air show. Even IFRs don’t have sep around a jump zone. But, it is an instruction from ATC and you’re required to comply.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I just appreciated her keeping me from having to clean blood off the windshield again.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
How about being vectored into a bravo bust?
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Controllers can screw up too. Generally on a long cross country I file IFR, that stuff becomes a non issue. Around here, you have to stay alert.
Suppose a lot of us might argue that you didn't have to do it, but as to whether you should do it that's something different.
Something about being a pilot makes us all a little antiauthority, but in practice - I think we are actually significantly more compliant than the overall population. We bristle at some of the limitations we operate under while not necessarily appreciating the freedoms we enjoy as pilots. I tell my friends the single greatest freedom we enjoy as US citizens is the opportunity to be a pilot and fly our small planes all the places we can.
Someday - hopefully many years from now - when I am on my deathbed and dyeing I'll be talking aimlessly as most of us do at the end - I suspect I'll look for old friends, parents, pets - all the usual stuff. What I know will really blow people away is I'll also start talking to Boston Center - why? Three years ago in my little Warrior I was flying to Boston remember it well, I was IFR direct to Lobby intersection and sent to another controller. When I was sent to the other controller it was pretty much quiet until a few moments later Air Force One checks on - for about five minuted until he moved on to the next controller, I was the only plane on that frequency with Air Force One. I do not know the veracity of this but I'm told when Air Force one comes through they usually staff with the most senior controller for that sector - moreover, lots of secret service oversight, etc. What a great experience, me, my little airplane, and Air Force One - really one of my life's greatest honors to get to share airspace with the President and one of our countries most visible symbols.
Thing to remember is they didn't tell me to land or go away - I literally got the same service as the President.
What a great country we live in - what great freedoms we enjoy as pilots!
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,224
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Working a DZ should be simple. There’s no need to clamp down and vector an aircraft. It’s like a convective area on radar. Tell the pilot about the area and inform them deviation is approved. I’m about letting pilots decide their best COA when dealing with situations where there isn’t any approved separation.
As far as AF1 and senior controller, might be a supervisor decision but there’s nothing in policy. Worked AF1 on a PAR and I was a moderately experienced controller. Worked VM1 on approach and I was probably the most junior approach controller at the time. Like doing an FAA flight check. You don’t want a student on but any competent controller will do.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Here too!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
I didn't say, or imply, always. Here's the whole thing I said about that. "Traffic does enter Bravos descending in from above. Happens hundreds of times a day at Los Angeles. Probably lotsa other places to."
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
Haven’t had a chance to look back and reply. In general. SWA 737’s going to MDW may enter and leave but MDW is a class C. The ORD class B isn’t designed to protect that airport. Does result in fast moving airliners below the B. ORD arrivals USUALLY stay in. Sometimes we get too busy and they come out the back side though.
*I try to stay out of the Pilot venting about ATC stuff. Sometimes it could be valid and sometimes is a lack of understanding about things not possible to be known from a single cockpit.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
After reviewing the FlightAware logs and the live ATC recordings, I wish I had asked if it would help if I slowed down. Right before I asked about a bravo clearance, the controller told me to follow another aircraft, but I wasn't able to spot it. I was still on an assigned heading that would have taken me into the bravo, and that was dominating my attention at that time.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Gotcha. It was ORD traffic I was thinking of. Got my question answered above in post #95.Haven’t had a chance to look back and reply. In general. SWA 737’s going to MDW may enter and leave but MDW is a class C. The ORD class B isn’t designed to protect that airport. Does result in fast moving airliners below the B. ORD arrivals USUALLY stay in. Sometimes we get too busy and they come out the back side though.
*I try to stay out of the Pilot venting about ATC stuff. Sometimes it could be valid and sometimes is a lack of understanding about things not possible to be known from a single cockpit.
danhagan
En-Route
I used to accept those vectors over Mexico, but now respond unable and offer a 360 or the long way around Anthony Gap (they try to keep you out of there was that is the V94 arrival for the west arriving heavy iron. If you are a CHL-LTC and lose an engine, you better start throwing gun parts over board pretty fast. If you're familiar with the Dona Ana CFI's, Jim F. had a friend years ago that was arrested in his commercial job for an uneventful off airport landing after engine problems (he was told it's a criminal offense not to land at the airport and was sent to jail). His company wasn't allowed to depart from the road after repair and was forced to truck the plane out of there.
I got that guy last month and asked him what the hemispheric rule was below 3000 AGL (the only other AC in Class C at the time was a SWA already airborne and climbing through 10k ... in a normal plane you will barely be at the edge of their airspace and ready to descend again for Dona Ana climbing through 5500
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,224
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Haven’t had a chance to look back and reply. In general. SWA 737’s going to MDW may enter and leave but MDW is a class C. The ORD class B isn’t designed to protect that airport. Does result in fast moving airliners below the B. ORD arrivals USUALLY stay in. Sometimes we get too busy and they come out the back side though.
*I try to stay out of the Pilot venting about ATC stuff. Sometimes it could be valid and sometimes is a lack of understanding about things not possible to be known from a single cockpit.
You gotta keep these guys separated Kevin. Happens way too often!
coma24
Line Up and Wait
I've been vectored in Class E airspace while flying VFR in the NY area quite a few times, usually just north of HPN while descending westbound towards N07. There's a bunch of arrival flows there which can cause an issue. In this case I believe it was for the LGA arrivals. I was somewhere between 6k and 8k each time. I've also gotten vectors from Philly approach whilst overflying their Bravo. I had zero qualms with that, though, because it was pretty obvious that my flight path was going to conflict with the departure flow. Yankee approach has done it before, too (used to be Bradley).
On another note, while operating IFR I have noticed that sequencing into airports that aren't routinely busy seems to be needlessly conservative at times. Ultimately, though, it's only added a couple of minutes at most to my flight, and I also can't presume to have the full picture, so I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
On another note, while operating IFR I have noticed that sequencing into airports that aren't routinely busy seems to be needlessly conservative at times. Ultimately, though, it's only added a couple of minutes at most to my flight, and I also can't presume to have the full picture, so I like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Less than a year.??
Just a continuation.
Just a continuation.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
The original for abusive vectoring is C90. Their reply is No reply. As in "wee can't hear you".
the fact the only way from my home base through the Bravo is to position oneself "incidentally" to approach the conga line at Benke. Then they vector you throught the bravo.
And if you are on VFR advisories, they won't HESITATE to vector you- through Rockford.
the fact the only way from my home base through the Bravo is to position oneself "incidentally" to approach the conga line at Benke. Then they vector you throught the bravo.
And if you are on VFR advisories, they won't HESITATE to vector you- through Rockford.
Last edited:
frfly172
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you want vectoring almost all the time,come to Tampa, Sarasota and St Pete. Airspace is getting overly crowded so much so that they sometimes declare airspace saturation. Always good to make sure you have enough fuel to comply.
kaiser
Pattern Altitude
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2019
- Messages
- 2,242
- Location
- Chicagoland
- Display Name
Display name:
The pilot formerly known as Cool Beard Guy
Have you been abused by C90 since KLOT went Class D?
crash7
Line Up and Wait
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2008
- Messages
- 631
- Display Name
Display name:
Crash7
During an IFR long x/c (in actual), Nashville refuses is an ILS. Negotiated an ILS to Tune. Got vectored all over to delay us for a hole to get us in.
Got the student more actual, I guess...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Got the student more actual, I guess...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is the hilarious part. C90 IGNORES KLOT. No handoff, no nothing.
So, KLOT is a tower only because of legislation. Rep. Dan Lapinski (no longer in congress) put it in a transportation bill. C90 wants NO ADDED duties. No handoffs. There is no equipment at KLOT other than a phone line and binoculars (and an ADSB iPAD). Five controllers and not even a “brite”.
This is a prime example of EVERYTHING WRONG with federal administration. Rep. Lapinski was determined to deliver PORK (KLOT didn’t meet traffic count criteria). C90 won’t integrate it. Millions spent.
The chief at C90 is determined to win this turf war. It’s so sad.
Last edited: