FWIW: as I understand it, the DPE side had more than normal local influence on who was selected when compared to other designee selections. It seems in recent years there is a move to bring the DPEs back into the normal fold so to speak. Whether thats the right thing to do and in this manner I couldn't tell you. However, there has been discussions that a number of DPEs felt their appointment was a "lifetime" selection and started to act as such which caused issues upstream of the FSDO. Regardless, in my experience with the designee program there is a defined process to remove a designee for various reasons which includes an appeal process path with some removals. So without knowing the "other side" of the removal action it really makes any discussion moot given the required process to remove a designee.
Mass Termination of DPEs - Portland, ME FSDO
- Thread starter ivegotmoxie
- Start date
The FAA order 8000.95 pretty much indicates the designee serves at the whim of the faa. While the cause is easy to come by the faa tends to rubber stamp the process of the corrupt official. While there appears to be an appeal, it’s hardly independent or impartial. While the same people can’t serve on the board that made the initial decision, they will be in collusion with them. It’s an even bigger sham than the normal faa enforcement process.
FYI: 8000.95 is a fairly recent policy change to how designees are managed and took several years to implement. It's my understanding this upgraded policy and the move to an internet based designee management system is one of the reasons behind a "reset" of certain designee programs. Prior to this it was a local, one-on-one, manual based system which kept system-wide oversight to a minimum. Add in each FAA office or service had their own separate policies and processes to follow back then. Now each designee follows the same rules and use the DMS to file their work. It appears to be a much different system than when I went through it years ago.
hindsight2020
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yup yup, kangaroo courts abound.
tehmightypirate
Line Up and Wait
Some interesting discussion here; let me hopefully clarify things by providing specifics to the situation of these DPEs. I'll summarize below but I've made a follow up reddit thread here if you wish to see more details: https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/tgtb8c/update_on_portland_me_fsdo_and_terminated_dpes/ I've also included in there a letter I'm sending to various parties and I encourage you to do the same.
In short, I've confirmed for myself that two of the four DPEs I'm aware of having been terminated were terminated improperly and without good cause; and the other two I believe fall under similar circumstances as they were terminated by the same observer.
A Designee Management System (DMS) specialist, while training one of the FAA inspectors, conducted and/or supervised observations three of the DPEs. In each case, the DPE was immediately terminated by the DMS specialist. The on-going checkrides were terminated and the examinee given a letter of discontinuation. All three of the DPEs are very experienced, highly regarded by the pilot community, and the reasons given in the termination letters that have been shared with me are based on subjective observations and do not provide specific details which support the opinion of the DMS specialist. The majority of my first-hand accounts have been regarding John Gary's termination. Both Mr. Tomlinson and Mr. Martel (the other two DPEs) declined to provide statements to me as to their termination and indicated they were evaluating their options moving forward, but my understanding is their terminations were of a similar manner and circumstances.
I highly believe that this DMS specialist is in error based on the accounts of the situation, my personal experience with one of the DPEs, and the fact that I don't see how 3 highly regarded DPEs can all be suddenly grossly incompetent. Much more likely to me is this DMS specialist is incorrect in his evaluations and improper in his recommendations for termination.
The fourth DPE was terminated due to receiving an authorization to conduct Airline Transport Pilot flight tests for the Airplane Single Engine Land rating that was given to him incorrectly by the FSDO and was terminated due to operating under this incorrectly received authorization. While obviously he ideally would have caught the incorrectly awarded authorization the error of awarding it lies with the FSDO. Terminating him is grossly unfair considering the error was not entirely his own.
In the end, in my opinion, these terminations should have been re-training, additional observation, or other non-punitive actions at worst.
As for the comment of "what business is it of mine?", it's my business to ensure myself, my students, and the pilot community have access to reputable and readily available examiners. If we found they were doing something wrong, then so be it. But they were not. These DPEs were highly regarded as fair, knowledgeable, enjoyable, and outstanding examiners. They weren't rubber-stamp DPEs, acting un-ethical (even if you consider having a glass of liquid on a zoom call to be un-ethical), nor were they grossly being improper or incompetent in their examinations. They were simply offering examination services as they should and got fired for doing their job. If this becomes the norm why on earth would anyone want to be a DPE when you can get terminated on a whim with no recourse or rational? I know I wouldn't.
I know I'm going to do what I can to fight or change this. I encourage you to do as well. Soon it could be your favorite DPE getting terminated and your checkride getting postponed. Or it could be you if you became a DPE. AOPA is working with the FAA to reform the DPE system and a reform of this system is clearly needed.
In short, I've confirmed for myself that two of the four DPEs I'm aware of having been terminated were terminated improperly and without good cause; and the other two I believe fall under similar circumstances as they were terminated by the same observer.
A Designee Management System (DMS) specialist, while training one of the FAA inspectors, conducted and/or supervised observations three of the DPEs. In each case, the DPE was immediately terminated by the DMS specialist. The on-going checkrides were terminated and the examinee given a letter of discontinuation. All three of the DPEs are very experienced, highly regarded by the pilot community, and the reasons given in the termination letters that have been shared with me are based on subjective observations and do not provide specific details which support the opinion of the DMS specialist. The majority of my first-hand accounts have been regarding John Gary's termination. Both Mr. Tomlinson and Mr. Martel (the other two DPEs) declined to provide statements to me as to their termination and indicated they were evaluating their options moving forward, but my understanding is their terminations were of a similar manner and circumstances.
I highly believe that this DMS specialist is in error based on the accounts of the situation, my personal experience with one of the DPEs, and the fact that I don't see how 3 highly regarded DPEs can all be suddenly grossly incompetent. Much more likely to me is this DMS specialist is incorrect in his evaluations and improper in his recommendations for termination.
The fourth DPE was terminated due to receiving an authorization to conduct Airline Transport Pilot flight tests for the Airplane Single Engine Land rating that was given to him incorrectly by the FSDO and was terminated due to operating under this incorrectly received authorization. While obviously he ideally would have caught the incorrectly awarded authorization the error of awarding it lies with the FSDO. Terminating him is grossly unfair considering the error was not entirely his own.
In the end, in my opinion, these terminations should have been re-training, additional observation, or other non-punitive actions at worst.
As for the comment of "what business is it of mine?", it's my business to ensure myself, my students, and the pilot community have access to reputable and readily available examiners. If we found they were doing something wrong, then so be it. But they were not. These DPEs were highly regarded as fair, knowledgeable, enjoyable, and outstanding examiners. They weren't rubber-stamp DPEs, acting un-ethical (even if you consider having a glass of liquid on a zoom call to be un-ethical), nor were they grossly being improper or incompetent in their examinations. They were simply offering examination services as they should and got fired for doing their job. If this becomes the norm why on earth would anyone want to be a DPE when you can get terminated on a whim with no recourse or rational? I know I wouldn't.
I know I'm going to do what I can to fight or change this. I encourage you to do as well. Soon it could be your favorite DPE getting terminated and your checkride getting postponed. Or it could be you if you became a DPE. AOPA is working with the FAA to reform the DPE system and a reform of this system is clearly needed.
MichiPilot
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FAA mismanaged DPE program where a federal agency has to trust someone other than themselves isn't working? I'm shocked.
Similarly, a DPE giving improper checkride? I'm shocked...
Finally, it almost sounds like FAA's designated representatives looking at aircraft certification...that work for the company.
Part of the blame is Congressional...too many restrictions on the agency leads to bloated wandering missions and need to satisfy auditors rather than focus on true safety.
Similarly, a DPE giving improper checkride? I'm shocked...
Finally, it almost sounds like FAA's designated representatives looking at aircraft certification...that work for the company.
Part of the blame is Congressional...too many restrictions on the agency leads to bloated wandering missions and need to satisfy auditors rather than focus on true safety.
I have to agree with the first reply to your most recent Reddit post. You don’t really present an argument other than they were 3 good DEPs and you disagree with them being terminated.
Bigger picture, I feel that if I can’t pass a checkride with any given DPE on any given day, I don’t deserve my ticket.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Yeah, but I literally heard a student in a room next to mine get failed for stuff that wasn't FAA or POH material, but literally an interpolation of a set of figures to determine an accelerate go number for a twin (Travel Air) that according to the CFI didn't even have a published number. It was highly, highly subjective, and I got the distinct impression that the DPE came in with the intent of failing a student from that start... and that's not the only time something like that has happened. The FAA and the DPE's have to have enough integrity that you can trust them, and they also need to set the tolerances low enough to actually pass an average well-prepared student. Too high of a standard actually pushes CFIs to send their students to "easier" checkride options en masse. Basically ALL of the CFIs I was working with at 5C1 back in the day were taking their students cross country to a different FSDO rather than put up with the shenanigans in our district. I'd venture that 70-90% of the students were being sent out of district.
tehmightypirate
Line Up and Wait
Yes, I've received a lot of critical feedback on my post. Apparently all the support I had from the original post has dried up. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Regardless, I've mostly hidden the post as it appears to not be helping.
Your summary is fundamentally correct, but what else can we go off of other than our judgements and disagreements? Every specific detail I learn points this as being minor issues that were used in the termination. These DPEs weren't doing anything egregious that I've learned of.
Tarheelpilot
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That’s naive.
Groundpounder
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What is the name of the FAA person that "fired" these DPE's? PM if you don't want to post it here.
Saw the persons name in the Reddit post. Not who I thought it was going to be
Saw the persons name in the Reddit post. Not who I thought it was going to be
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fasteddie
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Been following this thread, along with the original Reddit post and update. 300 comments between the two Reddit posts; good stuff. For those looking at the OPs second Reddit post, he's decided to mark most of the post as "spoiler," so it shows up as a blacked-out text. Just click on the text to read it.
Sounds like people have differing opinions on "what business it is of yours." One person's opinion only: I appreciate what you're doing because it seems like you're trying to throw some light on a bureaucracy run amok. And not just your run-of-the-mill normal, lethargic, bloated federal bureaucracy. If I'm reading it all correctly, it sounds like the FAA Designee Management System (DMS) specialist ran completely off the rails in terminating the DPEs. Also, I don't know the ins and outs of the FAA, but I'm a bit flabbergasted that one person has the power to unilaterally dismiss multiple DPEs immediately, on the spot, without any recourse. I get "DPEs serve at the pleasure of the FAA" and all that, but dang.
The term "The Deep State" gets kicked around a lot when referencing the federal government. People scoff at the term, but the issue is real. There is a huge body of government employees (and contractors) with a lot of funding and power, and very little oversight. And the funding, power, and overall size only seems to go one way - Up. While not all of us have exposure to the DPE system, we are all federal taxpayers, and therefore should all take note.
On a related point, your second reddit post names the FAA DMS specialist who dismissed the DPEs. Anyone who wants to see the name need only go to this Reddit post and scroll a little ways down. Looking on Linkedin, I could only find one person with that name who works with the FAA. I can only assume that's the individual, but happy to be corrected.
If that is the individual, I'm kind of surprised the FAA trusts them with that much power, given what looks like nothing more than ~15 years in corporate aviation.
Albany Tom
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I've worked professionally with federal agencies for a long time. The vast majority of people I've worked with are ethical and professional. The systems, policies, and procedures, however, are often not consistent with doing what is obviously the right thing, much of the time. For things to work right, it's important for things to be as transparent as possible, and for people to question things that don't seem right. Are most of the complaints about things groundless? Sure. (Believe it or not, the NWS gets complaints that they're managing the weather wrong. Not the forecasts - the actual weather.) But sometimes the reports about a screw-up are legitimate.
My bet here is that the FAA doesn't consider DPE's "theirs", so they don't care that they don't have the same hiring protection that civil service employees have. They're just (disposable) contractors. I could be wrong, that's just my guess. But if I'm right, that's the wrong way to look at it. DPE's are just as important as any other FAA employee, if not more so.
My bet here is that the FAA doesn't consider DPE's "theirs", so they don't care that they don't have the same hiring protection that civil service employees have. They're just (disposable) contractors. I could be wrong, that's just my guess. But if I'm right, that's the wrong way to look at it. DPE's are just as important as any other FAA employee, if not more so.
Sucks, get over it.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Either by termination of good ones, or failure to attract and evaluate good ones to work for them, they have failed to do their duty. I totally agree.
Something ELSE is also wrong if that many examiners require firing in such a short period of time.
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Ghery
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The DPE who did my IFR rides back in 2011 failed me on the first try fair and square. I got too low on a non-precision approach. Passed me on the second try. He is no longer a DPE (at the pleasure of the local FSDO), but I don't recall why. It wasn't anything I experienced, but IIRC it was something that he did and caused him to lose his designation. It happens...
NoBShere
Pre-takeoff checklist
This is slightly related, I always thought it was odd that checkrides were paid directly to the DPE by name. Additionally, if you fail a checkride, its normally in your best interest to complete the checkride with the same DPE including writing another check to said DPE. If we are all supposed to be flying "by the numbers" why does it matter what DPE you ride with? My DPE was fine, certainly not compatible personalities but, he was fine. Anyway, the payment process seems like it is unnecessarily open to issues. I suppose its due to employment considerations.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your DPE will take a check?
I think that's fairly unusual, at least around here. Both of mine wanted cash.
Daleandee
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Yep ... cash only as far as I've experienced or heard of. If you show up late, bring more cash.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I can only imagine how many times a grouched failed applicant went straight to his bank and placed a "stop payment" out of spite.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Is gross incompetence the standard for terminating a DPE?
Lindberg
Final Approach
I failed my first private ride and passed the second attempt with a different DPE, competing only the tasks listed on the notice of disapproval. (Both took checks, but this was decades ago.) If an applicant failed a ride and attributed it to personality incompatibility, I would not suggest he reride with the same examiner. Many don't.
FYI: Given a designee must remain a "private individual" while representing the FAA its the only way for the monies to transact. There is no requirement that states a designee must charge a fee only that they are authorized to "charge reasonable applicant fees."
NoBShere
Pre-takeoff checklist
Thanks for clarifying the re-ride use of different DPE. Can a personality incompatibility really be bad enough to cause a failure? I work with a lot of people I don't want to hang out with but, we still get the job done.
Lindberg
Final Approach
According to many posts here it can be. I've personally only failed one ride though and it was my doing. So I can't say. But if you fail you get a notice of disapproval that says what you screwed up on. So go to whomever you want for the retest.
Albany Tom
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I think I paid both of mine by check. But, smaller town up here, and everyone was all local and either knew each other or was one friend away. Plus I'm old and responsible looking.
Witmo
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I wonder if you'd feel the same if you failed a checkride because the DPE was having a bad day or he required you to do something that you were unfamiliar with and wasn't a required item for the checkride. An acquaintance of mine failed the oral because the DPE refused to get on a scale or even state his weight because he said a commercial candidate should be able to accurately estimate the weight of his passenger. My commercial candidate friend said he wouldn't fly without doing an accurate weight and balance to which the DPE replied, checkride over. I didn't know until then that guesstimating passenger weight was a graded ACS item. This occurred right after the DPE took a personal phonecall and had a heated discussion which clearly upset him.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is why they insist on cash. I certainly would have cancelled that check, and then made an immediate call to the FSDO.
Lindberg
Final Approach
One half of a story, second hand. The DPE who did my second private checkride (who I didn't know from Adam) told me a story about a candidate he had to fail for an unsafe go around. A little while later, I heard the same story from a friend of mine. But this time my friend was the hero and was unjustly busted. To this day I have no idea what actually happened. I'm friends with a few examiners now and hear lots of stories. It's almost inconceivable what some applicants will do and say. And almost none of them believe they deserved a bust. I'd be MUCH more surprised about a DPE losing his designation over unjustified failures than unjustified passes.
Tarheelpilot
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I know an examiner that was fired and several candidates had the bust taken off their record by the FAA because it was determined to be a bad bust.
There are bad ones out there…
schmookeeg
En-Route
Yikes. I'm guessing this particular DPE was a dude of gravity and sensitive about the subject
In hindsight, I bet the applicant wishes he just presented a W&B with 500# for the DPE's weight.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
That right there is a great example of someone who should not be a DPE. Not only is obtaining a declared weight or actual weight, good ADM and preflight planning but it should also have demonstrated competency to the DPE. Busting for that is unjust. Furthermore, allowing a bad day personally to affect the process is unprofessional. Two fails on the DPE. You are the weakest link, goodbye.
SoonerAviator
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Not me. If I don't hold altitude on a turn around a point, my family is none the wiser and it doesn't cost me a check ride fee, lol.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are bad busts. But I also have no doubt that there is a lot more grace.
Tarheelpilot
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I also know that when I hear a story about an unjust examiner I have no idea what is truth. Could be a whinny applicant or a bad examiner. While I agree with your anecdotal opinion of the spread of these two possible causes just hearing one side of the story is not enough information to form a valid opinion.
ateamer
Pattern Altitude
Was this a larger-sized DPE with a bushy beard, in San Jose?