Can a CFI cancel a checkride endorsement (IACRA)?

RussR

RussR

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Purely hypothetical, fortunately, but I was thinking. I do primarily multiengine training. I operate a Seminole for this purpose (somewhat pertinent for scenario 1 maybe).

Two scenarios I guess.
1) I sign an applicant off for a checkride. Weather delays, or examiner availability cause it to get close to 60 days. I suggest we go up for a refresher, but the applicant refuses, deciding to "take a chance". Not completely hard to understand, each hour of training is around $400 all in, so that's a big chunk of money. Maybe they decide they'd rather gamble.

2) I sign them off, and then they move. New job or whatever. In the new location they find a Seminole, but maybe it's a G1000 model. Or maybe the airspace is really complicated, Or whatever. They do go get some training from a local instructor. Or maybe the local school doesn't require it if a DPE is going to be on board. Regardless, I have no idea how they're doing, but since it's within 60 days, it's still my endorsement.

Now, I care about properly preparing applicants for checkrides. And I care about my reputation, which includes pass rate. Maybe in both scenarios the applicant was ready for the checkride when I signed them off, but was one of the more marginal students. I don't feel comfortable that ey can still pass the checkride.

Sure, on a paper logbook I could cross out and initial the endorsement. But that does require the applicant to willingly hand it to me. If I know who the DPE is I could call them directly, but they are free to find their own DPE. But can I go into IACRA and cancel the endorsement that way? That would be the only sure-fire way to do it.

Yes, this does sound like a really ugly situation that I hope never happens. Has anyone had something similar happen to them? From the applicant, CFI, or DPE side?
 
No idea about the legality or process of pulling an endorsement. But your reputation is going to suffer if you pull or try to pull an endorsement. Short of some documented emergent situations (psychotic break, DUI, or drug use) the 60-day limit also protects the student’s investment. Otherwise, you come off as a shakedown artist.
 
rhkennerly said:
No idea about the legality or process of pulling an endorsement. But your reputation is going to suffer if you pull or try to pull an endorsement. Short of some documented emergent situations (psychotic break, DUI, or drug use) the 60-day limit also protects the student’s investment. Otherwise, you come off as a shakedown artist.
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Interesting. I hadn't considered that angle, probably because I don't consider myself a shakedown artist. :D But I see what you mean.
 
RussR said:
Interesting. I hadn't considered that angle, probably because I don't consider myself a shakedown artist. :D But I see what you mean.
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I see your point, however. I'd be a bit dismayed by a student near the end of the 60-day window who wouldn't spend a bit to "insure" his investment in time and money. It would cost far more than an hour of pre-checkride brush-up to overcome a failure.
 
Cloudhound said:
I guess if you don't feel comfortable with letting your signature ride for 60 days, you probably shouldn't sign it in the first place.

I mean, You're asking to rescind your signature???

Hmmm....
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I'm just trying to think of real edge-of-the-envelope stuff. Is it even possible to do so?

Here's another couple scenarios I thought of.

1) You have a Private Pilot applicant who owns a 172. You sign him off. He does some more solo practice, during which you find out he was doing loops and rolls in the 172. Because, who knows, he posted video on youtube.

2) You have a Private Pilot applicant who rents a 172 from your flight school in Florida. You sign him off. He moves to Leadville, CO and buys the same model 172. Now, he would need a solo endorsement for the new airport from a local CFI. But past that, you have no idea of or control over what he's been trained on regarding high DA takeoffs and landings, mountain flying, mountain navigation, turbulence, any of that. But within 60 days, it's still your signature on the line, your pass rate, and if something tragic were to happen, you're the one that signed him off.
 
I think it's a legit question and have wondered about it myself.
 
It's an interesting question but at the end of the day, you're an instructor, not a babysitter. Your endorsement is a testament that the student has received the required training and was prepared at the time the endorsement was signed.

RussR said:
1) You have a Private Pilot applicant who owns a 172. You sign him off. He does some more solo practice, during which you find out he was doing loops and rolls in the 172. Because, who knows, he posted video on youtube.

2) You have a Private Pilot applicant who rents a 172 from your flight school in Florida. You sign him off. He moves to Leadville, CO and buys the same model 172. Now, he would need a solo endorsement for the new airport from a local CFI. But past that, you have no idea of or control over what he's been trained on regarding high DA takeoffs and landings, mountain flying, mountain navigation, turbulence, any of that.
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And what would you do if the student did those things immediately after the check ride?
 
RussR said:
I'm just trying to think of real edge-of-the-envelope stuff. Is it even possible to do so?

Here's another couple scenarios I thought of.

1) You have a Private Pilot applicant who owns a 172. You sign him off. He does some more solo practice, during which you find out he was doing loops and rolls in the 172. Because, who knows, he posted video on youtube.

2) You have a Private Pilot applicant who rents a 172 from your flight school in Florida. You sign him off. He moves to Leadville, CO and buys the same model 172. Now, he would need a solo endorsement for the new airport from a local CFI. But past that, you have no idea of or control over what he's been trained on regarding high DA takeoffs and landings, mountain flying, mountain navigation, turbulence, any of that. But within 60 days, it's still your signature on the line, your pass rate, and if something tragic were to happen, you're the one that signed him off.
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in the first case, turn the violations over to the FAA--they'll punch his "ticket". In the second, the problem is likely "self-limiting." And you share the problem with the new CFI who signed off on local flight, in the new location. You'd think it would be pretty unrealistic feat to pull off training, a move, an airplane purchase, and get a local CFI endorsement in 60-days.
 
dmspilot said:
It's an interesting question but at the end of the day, you're an instructor, not a babysitter. Your endorsement is a testament that the student has received the required training and was prepared at the time the endorsement was signed.



And what would you do if the student did those things immediately after the check ride?
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Well of course you have no control after the checkride. But in the "loops" example, that would make me (rightfully so) reconsider if he has displayed the proper judgment to be able to take the checkride. In the "Leadville" scenario, I clearly have not been able to provide him with adequate training (in Florida) to be able to take a checkride in Leadville.
 
rhkennerly said:
You'd think it would be pretty unrealistic feat to pull off training, a move, an airplane purchase, and get a local CFI endorsement in 60-days.
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Oh sure, but the exact details aren't important. Maybe he has a brother with a 172 in Leadville and goes there for vacation every summer.
 
Limitations on a solo endorsement can help protect a CFI somewhat.
 
RussR said:
But in the "loops" example, that would make me (rightfully so) reconsider if he has displayed the proper judgment to be able to take the checkride.
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If you endorsed a student who has such poor judgement, should we not question your judgement? When you endorse a student for the ride, you're not just testifying to his stick and rudder skills, but to his ability to be PIC. That includes his knowledge, his ADM, his judgement, his maturity, etc.

And you sign it knowing your signature is good for 60 days. If you're not comfortable with that, don't sign.
 
Half Fast said:
If you endorsed a student who has such poor judgement, should we not question your judgement?
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I think most good CFI's try to get to know our students pretty well, but sometimes you do get surprises. I've seen a few doozies. The "perfect" student who out of the blue uses really, really poor judgment, for instance.
 
Half Fast said:
If you endorsed a student who has such poor judgement, should we not question your judgement? When you endorse a student for the ride, you're not just testifying to his stick and rudder skills, but to his ability to be PIC. That includes his knowledge, his ADM, his judgement, his maturity, etc.

And you sign it knowing your signature is good for 60 days. If you're not comfortable with that, don't sign.
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You're being a bit too idealistic. Anybody who has signed off more than a few students has seen their share of surprises. You can't predict individual human behavior. You can just take your best guess and go from there.
 
Easiest way is to just control when you give the endorsement. Any concern at all? Just do the logbook endorsement the morning of the checkride, before the DPE shows up (or the day before, etc.). At least limits your exposure.
 
RussR said:
You're being a bit too idealistic. Anybody who has signed off more than a few students has seen their share of surprises. You can't predict individual human behavior. You can just take your best guess and go from there.
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Exactly this. I’ve sent students who were absolute rockstars that just let their nerves get the best of them. Just as I’ve had competent but mediocre students rise to the occasion and pass with glowing praise from the DPE.
 
RussR said:
You're being a bit too idealistic. Anybody who has signed off more than a few students has seen their share of surprises. You can't predict individual human behavior. You can just take your best guess and go from there.
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What’s wrong with applying hypothetical idealism to a hypothetical scenario?

:)
 
Let’s say you choose to limit the original endorsement to 30 days, and they finally get a checkride scheduled on day 34 and you trust their ADM and that they’ve stayed sharp without flying with you. Would you have to ride with them again, or could you simply provide them another endorsement staying within the original 60 day window?
 
You can 'legally' pull an endorsement at anytime. Let's say I've endorsed a student to do a solo XC to an airport, and then lets say that airport has it's long runway closed for resurfacing the entire summer and I don't feel comfortable having the student land on their 1200ft long runway. It's well within my rights and ability as an instructor to pull the endorsement by striking through it and initialing the change.

How it would be done practically in the situation you describe, I can't really say.
 
You cannot cancel an endorsements for a practical test, IPC, or a fight review. I suppose with a student you could void solo and XC endorsements if you had access to their logbook. I have seen schools who place 90 day validity on knowledge test endorsements. I am uncertain if that is even valid.

The fun regulation is 61.189 (b) (2) That requires the CFI to maintain a record of the name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results. How do you require someone tell you they took a test and the result?
 
Clip4 said:
How do you require someone tell you they took a test and the result?
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Just record it as result unknown.

Has anyone ever been asked to show those records? My record is an excel spreadsheet.
 
Half Fast said:
If you endorsed a student who has such poor judgement, should we not question your judgement? When you endorse a student for the ride, you're not just testifying to his stick and rudder skills, but to his ability to be PIC. That includes his knowledge, his ADM, his judgement, his maturity, etc.

And you sign it knowing your signature is good for 60 days. If you're not comfortable with that, don't sign.
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Students can always surprise us... Many years ago, I instructed for a small FBO in Alaska. I had recently soloed a local businessman (in his early 50's, call him Fred) in his freshly purchased, nearly new, 7GCBC Citabria. I had endorsed Fred for local solo flights (within 25 miles of home field) and winds less than 8 kts. I remember that Fred was very confident, looking forward to flying with his friends who had aircraft, but not always focused on the flying task we were working on that day... Then, I got a Sunday morning call from my boss at the FBO. He was anxious and angry, asking for details about Fred's instruction. Turns out that Fred had loaded his wife in the Citabria and flew 75 miles to a remote clam digging beach and "landed" there. The Citabria ended up upside down, and later flooded with saltwater when the tide came in... luckily Fred and his wife were not seriously injured. There were no repercussions for me related to the incident. I never flew with Fred again, not sure if he continued flying after.

All that you can control is your judgment and your signature... not the actions of your students.
 
A coworker of mine said he was told by an FAA inspector that you couldn’t rescind a solo endorsement. Apparently said FAA inspector didn’t do anything about it when the coworker did so in front of him.

student did some pretty egregious stuff, making the hypothetical and real examples above look like amateur hour, IMO.
 
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