Piper Oil

mandm

mandm

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Question
When flying with more than 6 quarts it seems there is oil on the cowling and a very small amount makes it to the windscreen that I can observe post flight. Does this just mean too much oil? I’m thinking to stick with 5.5-6quarts and not to exceed 6 quarts. I’m also guessing when I do an oil change to just add 6 quarts as well, even though the capacity is 8 quarts.
 
Mine will hold 12. An ounce more than 9 and it coats the belly.
 
Unit74 said:
Mine will hold 12. An ounce more than 9 and it coats the belly.
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When you do an oil change do you put 9 quarts in then? So where does the oil come from?
 
How is it getting onto the windscreen if there are no leaking seals? Is the breather tube ending inside the cowling somewhere and oil mist is flying everywhere behind the engine and out past the cowl seal strip at the top? That installation needs checking.

And yes, Lycomings mostly don't care to be filled right up.
 
mandm said:
Haha I mean when it coats the top of the cowling and under the landing light.
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It comes out of the crankcase vent. When I park, just like a Harley, it drips out of the hose.

In 2016, I had an oil change and they filled 12 qts. When I landed, the FBO though my engine had blown. It was all over the place and left an oil patch from front to rear.
 
Think people are mixing 6 and 4 cylinder engines in this. Most Lycoming 4 Cyl do well with around 6 quarts. I suspect the OP has a 4 cylinder engine. Oil on the windscreen suggests a leak somewhere. Valve cover gaskets and the nose seal are both good guesses. Clean the engine thoroughly and fly for a half an hour or so.
 
Dan Thomas said:
How is it getting onto the windscreen if there are no leaking seals? Is the breather tube ending inside the cowling somewhere and oil mist is flying everywhere behind the engine and out past the cowl seal strip at the top? That installation needs checking.

And yes, Lycomings mostly don't care to be filled right up.
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I should have taken a photo, there is a drip under the landing light, and a very trace amount on the top of the cowling that transfers to the windscreen. So I’m wondering what I did wrong, maybe I overfilled it. It isn’t a lot and it doesn’t block the view, but I also notice it and don’t want to leave it there so I wipe/clean up the plane (leading edges, windows) after each flight.

No idea where it is coming from, almost seems as if there is a stain on the back of the prop. There has been trace amounts of oil on top of the cowling before which stopped but then I filled the oil up to 7 quarts and it started again. I’m going to fly it a little more and see what happens now that it is at the 6 quart mark, and will be doing an oil change in the near future.
 
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The only time you want to fill a Lycoming to its rated capacity is if you're setting out on a nonstop transatlantic flight. Oil can travel to some surprising places under a cowling even if it's just coming from the breather.

My engine holds 8 quarts, if I put more than 6 in it it just goes out the breather. I put in 5 quarts at oil change and add a quart when it gets close to 4.
 
Dana said:
The only time you want to fill a Lycoming to its rated capacity is if you're setting out on a nonstop transatlantic flight. Oil can travel to some surprising places under a cowling even if it's just coming from the breather.

My engine holds 8 quarts, if I put more than 6 in it it just goes out the breather. I put in 5 quarts at oil change and add a quart when it gets close to 4.
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Sounds like my 24 quarts of oil will last a few oil changes then. :)
 
My O-320 likes 6 quarts. Over that, and it spews it out the breather. I’ll add a quart a when the dipstick says 5. Burns about a quart every 10-15 hours when between 5-6 quarts on the dipstick.
 
Unit74 said:
Mine will hold 12. An ounce more than 9 and it coats the belly.
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My O-540 definitely doesn’t like any more than 9. I’m starting to think 8.5 might be the sweet spot. I’ve only had it about six months and I’m still learning.
 
Agree with lycomings only wanting about 3/4 of capacity, but even overfilled I've never seen one get it on the cowling/ windscreen. Are you absolutely certain it's not coming from the prop or the governor? The front seal would also be a likely culprit. Leaks on the front end like that can get blown up on the windshield. Ask me how I know :confused:... overfilled pukes out the breather and runs down the belly.
 
It’s not a constant speed prop, is it? If it is, wipe the oil on the windshield with a white cloth and make sure it’s not pink/red oil.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
It’s not a constant speed prop, is it? If it is, wipe the oil on the windshield with a white cloth and make sure it’s not pink/red oil.
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Constant speed prop, it is not pink/red, I would go with light brown. It’s almost micro droplets of something, wipes up in half a second. More of a mist on the windscreen that clouds it. I’ll get photos next time, I actually thought it was overflow of oil but I didn’t think that oil falls down. One time the oil cap was off after landing so I thought it was because of that. But I have tightened it more lately.
 
Rgbeard said:
Any showing on the blades of the prop?
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I felt like there was a shadow of something on the back of the prop. The front of the blade is smooth and fine but when I tried to wipe the back of the prop blade with a microfiber cloth it just wouldn’t wipe it wasn’t smooth like the front.
 
There was a similar discussion recently on another forum. They thought it was the front seal, but it turned out to be a pushrod tube seal, which they found by adding dye to the oil and using a black light.
 
My Mooney throws out all oil over 6 quarts. So I put in six quarts. Now my AI has that in his notes and he puts in six quarts during the annual. He told me it is not a big deal and lots of airplanes have the same type of problem. Running less than maximum is OK as long as the oil temperature and pressures are good. I do drain and refill the oil pan about every 25 hours, as recommend in the manual for my plane.
 
My Archer2 with the Lyc O360A4M does fine with putting in 7.5 qts at oil change time with the filter change. The dipstick reads 7 out of the max 8 and very slowly decreases, often only adding no oil or at most 1 qt for next 4-6 month or 25hr oil change. I usually add that 1 qt if needed at the 6 qt mark. I do use Camguard.
 
My o-540 also is a 9 qts or below engine. Was at a fly in a few years ago and the plane next to me was also a Cherokee 235, and guy insisted he had to keep 12 qts in it always. He was adding a qt every 1-2 hours . When I suggested he try flying with only 9 qts, and how engines are certified for double what they actually need, he gave me a look like the wings would fall off if he flew with only 6 qts. Lol
 
It’s like a poor man’s corrosion prevention plan.
 
Here’s the photos after a 3.5 hour flight today. My guess is it’s oil and coming from the prop. Usually there is much less since I normally fly shorter flights.

6714D614-0BD7-4BB7-BBFE-C08B50E0FEE5.jpeg 20E2E91F-3394-47F3-96DB-DC60F48B93A8.jpeg AA852BEB-F0C7-40DD-B6B2-0006B1278474.jpeg E3E25976-01E2-4A9D-A587-FB6491AD245C.jpeg B5474B55-20A7-485B-BB33-03E79CE82DAE.jpeg 67FD8894-6862-4EA3-A273-12DC3FAD2E09.jpeg
 
According to the O-290 manual, the sump holds 8 quarts but the minimum safe quantity is only 2 quarts.
 
Bummer. Probably a safe bet you need a prop reseal.
 
Yep. Reseal time at the OK Corral.

I had mine done a bit ago.

However....... I also suspect your front crankshaft seal, due to how the oil is collecting on the top of the cowl.

Since 99% of the cost for the front crank seal is the removal/replacement of the prop, I would do BOTH at the same time.

Won't cost you much, and you'd not be sorry.

My 50-cents.
 
Any idea how much that will cost and how long it would take?
 
Dana said:
The only time you want to fill a Lycoming to its rated capacity is if you're setting out on a nonstop transatlantic flight. Oil can travel to some surprising places under a cowling even if it's just coming from the breather.

My engine holds 8 quarts, if I put more than 6 in it it just goes out the breather. I put in 5 quarts at oil change and add a quart when it gets close to 4.
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Your engine, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone run their 8 quart capacity engine close to 4 quarts before adding oil. The longer the dwell time the more the oil cools in the sump before going to the cooler and the lower oil level is suspending a higher percentage of contaminants and losing its lubrication properties sooner.

When it gets to ~5, add a quart.
 
mandm said:
Any idea how much that will cost and how long it would take?
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For MY plane, APS up there in Chicago was quoting $6k and 2 months... this was in October. The place my prop is at in AL right now quoted $4500 and 6 weeks. I'm assuming yours will be a little cheaper being a 2 blade. These were for an overhaul. An experienced hangar neighbor AP said he sends his to ASI in IN. Add in a few hundred for the R&R.

Stallings Propeller in AR was willing to do a reseal for $1000 if they didn't find anything else wrong. He said they are pretty busy in the winter, but could do it while I waited during the summer. He was highly recommended by another AP friend and actually called and talked to me for 20min in response to the email i sent. Bad part there is you have to get it down there (He's near Memphis).

So there's quite a range... it's worth calling around. Some places (like APS) won't do a reseal if your prop is a long time past tbo. Others will. A reseal can be advantageous if your blades are in good shape as they won't grind them, which will make them last longer.
 
What’s the difference between the $0.50 o-ring issue and a prop reseal? :eek: Reseal is a complete overhaul basically? I talked to my AP and he said to only prop cycle once during the winter that those seals are too cold and break and it’s 4-5k to send it out to the shop plus his cost for R&R. He’s going to have a look at the plane today, arg I thought the prop was recently overhauled too. He was leaning towards a new starter too.
 
mandm said:
What’s the difference between the $0.50 o-ring issue and a prop reseal? :eek: Reseal is a complete overhaul basically? I talked to my AP and he said to only prop cycle once during the winter that those seals are too cold and break and it’s 4-5k to send it out to the shop plus his cost for R&R. He’s going to have a look at the plane today, arg I thought the prop was recently overhauled too. He was leaning towards a new starter too.
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Both the crank seal and prop reseal need the prop off. (Capt. Obvious flew by).

Reseal is NOT a complete overhaul. It's half the cost from my experience, and half the effort.

I had other A&Ps giving me B.S. about the cold weather blah blah, but the deal is - you've got oil coming out in nasty amounts, and it shouldn't. Get it fixed.

The blades are showing oil - that's the prop leaking for sure.
Oil down the cowl - to me - looks like a seal.

@Pilawt to the courtesy phone for a second opinion as you've recently done a front crank seal.

I flew to the prop shop, and they did my reseal in four hours. Here's pix:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xDAf7tDEKypqdimAA
 
Pilawt said:
I had a bad nose seal (or two) on my PA-32, and the trail of oil on the top of the cowl looked just like your pics. I didn't have any on the prop, though.
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Does the prop have any? I guess extremely trace amounts, the back of the prop was there before. I’m not sure to be honest. I have an A&P having a look at it for recommendation. I still felt the plane was safe to fly though and on shorter flights (1hr) you wouldn’t see any leakage.
 
Pilawt said:
I had a bad nose seal (or two) on my PA-32, and the trail of oil on the top of the cowl looked just like your pics. I didn't have any on the prop, though.
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Was that the 4-5k fix?
 
If it’s an illusion that your blades are wet, from the lighting, then, you don’t need a prop reseal and you save a couple thousand.

You have a bad front crank seal.
 
Rgbeard said:
If it’s an illusion that your blades are wet, from the lighting, then, you don’t need a prop reseal and you save a couple thousand.

You have a bad front crank seal.
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Not arguing or saying you are wrong, I am saying I do not understand and I do not see it. I’m here to learn and forgive my questions however stupid they may be. ;)
 
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