PPL without medical?

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SDH

Filing Flight Plan
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SDH
Hello! I’m about to begin my training and recently learned I will have a difficult medical case. (Difficult but confident that it would eventually be issued)

Is it possible to train for the private cert in an LSA, and obtain the PPL without a 3rd class medical?

I didn’t see any requirements for the PPL that I thought would specifically require a medical as long as they were completed in a LSA.

Perhaps I am way off base here, but the thought was that I may be able to complete the training, and then once the medical is approved, I would be all set.

Thanks in advance!
 
you can train in an LSA or a plane that meets the definition of an LSA for the sport certificate (valid drivers license in place of a medical) and those hours can eventually be used for your PPL once you get your medical. you may still need additional hours for your PPL.
 
rk911 said:
you can train in an LSA or a plane that meets the definition of an LSA for the sport certificate (valid drivers license in place of a medical) and those hours can eventually be used for your PPL once you get your medical. you may still need additional hours for your PPL.
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Thanks. I understood that much to be true, but I’m wondering why I couldn’t just get the PPL? If the solo portion was done in a sport aircraft, is the medical a prerequisite to the license?

Again, I do understand that even if this was possible, I would still be restricted until getting the medical….
 
No. 14 CFR 61.23(a)(3) says you have to have a third class medical or basic med to take the private pilot checkrife.
 
Lindberg said:
No. 14 CFR 61.23(a)(3) says you have to have a third class medical or basic med to take the private pilot checkrife.
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Thank you, that’s the definitive answer I was looking for.
 
bbchien said:
How are you going to do 20 hrs of solo without a medical?
Agree with the Light Sport comments…….
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I stated that I planned to do the solo hrs in a LSA.
 
Lindberg said:
You don't need a medical to solo an LSA.
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That's not accurate. In order to solo an LSA without a medical you must be "exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking a sport pilot certificate".
 
SDH said:
Thank you, that’s the definitive answer I was looking for.
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But understand that you can't do BasicMed until you've held at least one 3rd class (or higher) medical certificate. There is no pathway to getting a private airplane pilot certificate without getting at least one FAA medical.

You could, however, get a private glider or balloon without a medical.
 
dmspilot said:
That's not accurate. In order to solo an LSA without a medical you must be "exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking a sport pilot certificate".
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It seems it is accurate. While there are conditions that must be met in order to solo an LSA, having a medical is not one of them.
 
Lindberg said:
It seems it is accurate. While there are conditions that must be met in order to solo an LSA, having a medical is not one of them.
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Having a medical is a condition that must be met if you're seeking a private pilot certificate which this entire thread is about.
 
There is nothing to stop a Sport Pilot student from training to the full Private syllabus, including soloing an LSA, requiring no medical. At the end he can either take the SP checkride, or get a medical and take the PP checkride. Obviously the appropriate written has to be passed.
 
dmspilot said:
Having a medical is a condition that must be met if you're seeking a private pilot certificate which this entire thread is about.
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The application for a student pilot certificate doesn't ask what rating you will ultimately go for, so I guess he can just decide before each flight and change his mind when he feels like it. Like a pilot who has both declaring silently to himself whether he's operating under Basic Med or on his medical.

Or is it your position that if he did most his training in an LSA without a medical "while seeking a sport pilot certificate" he'd have to get a medical and then redo all of it if he changes his mind and decides to go for pvt?
 
Lindberg said:
The application for a student pilot certificate doesn't ask what rating you will ultimately go for, so I guess he can just decide before each flight and change his mind when he feels like it. Like a pilot who has both declaring silently to himself whether he's operating under Basic Med or on his medical.
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I guess you can try that, don't know if the FAA will care or not. But the reg says what it says.

Or is it your position that if he did most his training in an LSA without a medical "while seeking a sport pilot certificate" he'd have to get a medical and then redo all of it if he changes his mind and decides to go for pvt?
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No, that's not my position.
 
The problem is, if the faa looks into it and sees training not required for a sport pilot cert such as the long cross country, flight by reference to instruments, night flight they will probably rule that the person was not training for a port pilot certificate. If the person did earn a sport pilot certificate THEN received the additional training, and got a third class then I see no problem. I think the biggest flag would be doing instrument training, night flying and a long cross country before earning a sport pilot cert. that would be a big red flag to the faa that the person was trying to skirt the rules.
 
unsafervguy said:
The problem is, if the faa looks into it and sees training not required for a sport pilot cert such as the long cross country, flight by reference to instruments, night flight they will probably rule that the person was not training for a port pilot certificate. If the person did earn a sport pilot certificate THEN received the additional training, and got a third class then I see no problem. I think the biggest flag would be doing instrument training, night flying and a long cross country before earning a sport pilot cert. that would be a big red flag to the faa that the person was trying to skirt the rules.
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I don't think there is any restriction on the maximum distance of a Sport PIlot student solo flight, nor is there a prohibition on training for instrument flight. In fact I don't see a single requirement in 61.109(a) that can't be done in a properly equipped LSA.

I sincerely doubt the FAA is going to complain about or take enforcement action against a pilot getting more than the minimum training required for his or her intended certificate.
 
unsafervguy said:
The problem is, if the faa looks into it and sees training not required for a sport pilot cert such as the long cross country, flight by reference to instruments, night flight they will probably rule that the person was not training for a port pilot certificate. If the person did earn a sport pilot certificate THEN received the additional training, and got a third class then I see no problem. I think the biggest flag would be doing instrument training, night flying and a long cross country before earning a sport pilot cert. that would be a big red flag to the faa that the person was trying to skirt the rules.
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That is absolutely not how the FAA will look at it. The FAA is never going to discourage flight solely by reference to instruments training.
 
Brad Z said:
That is absolutely not how the FAA will look at it. The FAA is never going to discourage flight solely by reference to instruments training.
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If they suspect that someone is trying to get around the medical requirement for private pilot certificate, and posting this type of question could very well get someone looking, you can bet on it that they would look deeper. The faa takes a very dim view of bending the rules. All I’m saying there is no problem doing dual training, additional training, but trying to skirt the solo requirement of the ppl because of no medical will raise red flags with the faa if they get interested.
 
unsafervguy said:
If they suspect that someone is trying to get around the medical requirement for private pilot certificate, and posting this type of question could very well get someone looking, you can bet on it that they would look deeper. The faa takes a very dim view of bending the rules. All I’m saying there is no problem doing dual training, additional training, but trying to skirt the solo requirement of the ppl because of no medical will raise red flags with the faa if they get interested.
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I just don't see that happening. There's a very clear delineation between what you can do without a medical certificate, and what requires one. Your long term, eventual goals are immaterial. If you plan to get your SP certificate along the way to earning a PP certificate, then you're still intending to get a SP certificate. And if your intentions change along the way -- your consultation with your AME indicates that you can indeed get that third class medical without complication or delay -- then you've just gotten some additional training that you can use.

And let's deviate for just a moment from the usual Talmudic debate over the theoretical nuances of what might happen. Ask yourself this: In what world would a.) anyone at the FAA take an interest in the line by line details of a student pilot's logbook; and b.) object to a student pilot receiving training not specifically required by the FARs; and c.) try to burn either the student pilot or the instructor for exceeding the minimum requirements?

I mean, I could be in deep doo-doo if they ever find out my CFI showed me an instrument approach or two...
 
unsafervguy said:
If they suspect that someone is trying to get around the medical requirement for private pilot certificate, and posting this type of question could very well get someone looking, you can bet on it that they would look deeper. The faa takes a very dim view of bending the rules. All I’m saying there is no problem doing dual training, additional training, but trying to skirt the solo requirement of the ppl because of no medical will raise red flags with the faa if they get interested.
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You are under a misconception. Instrument flight training is absolutely required for Sport Pilot if the LSA has a Vh over 87KCAS. There just isn’t a minimum number of hours as there is for Private. It’s part of the pre-solo XC requirements for all students.

See 61.93(e)(12).
Control and maneuvering solely by reference to flight instruments, including straight and level flight, turns, descents, climbs, use of radio aids, and ATC directives. For student pilots seeking a sport pilot certificate, the provisions of this paragraph only apply when receiving training for cross-country flight in an airplane that has a VH greater than 87 knots CAS.
 
unsafervguy said:
If they suspect that someone is trying to get around the medical requirement for private pilot certificate, and posting this type of question could very well get someone looking, you can bet on it that they would look deeper. The faa takes a very dim view of bending the rules. All I’m saying there is no problem doing dual training, additional training, but trying to skirt the solo requirement of the ppl because of no medical will raise red flags with the faa if they get interested.
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So, the Faa will flip out if a sport pilot student trains to the private pilot standards? That’s utterly absurd.

Although, they did make an utterly absurd call that makes training harder to do in experimental, so I guess I can’t put it past them. But, I’d like to see them crucify me for training to a higher standard than the certification I’m working on requires. That would be a fight I would not back down from. I’m still a little mystified why the general public accepted that ruling like sheep. It seems utterly absurd to me, but man, I got crucified on here for feeling that way.
 
Salty said:
So, the Faa will flip out if a sport pilot student trains to the private pilot standards? That’s utterly absurd.

Although, they did make an utterly absurd call that makes training harder to do in experimental, so I guess I can’t put it past them. But, I’d like to see them crucify me for training to a higher standard than the certification I’m working on requires. That would be a fight I would not back down from. I’m still a little mystified why the general public accepted that ruling like sheep. It seems utterly absurd to me, but man, I got crucified on here for feeling that way.
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OTOH, SP requires a higher standard for slow flight than PP, so in that case the FAA might flip out if a PP student was training to SP standards. After all, the FAA eased those standards for PP because they were considered too risky.
 
unsafervguy said:
If they suspect that someone is trying to get around the medical requirement for private pilot certificate, and posting this type of question could very well get someone looking, you can bet on it that they would look deeper. The faa takes a very dim view of bending the rules. All I’m saying there is no problem doing dual training, additional training, but trying to skirt the solo requirement of the ppl because of no medical will raise red flags with the faa if they get interested.
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There's no regulation being violated.

The reality is that sport pilot rules in part 61 were a carve-out developed independently from existing private or recreational pilot requirements. Nothing prevents you from starting with a student pilot to start training in balloons at age 14 and end up soloing in an airplane when your 16. A student pilot certificate is a student pilot certificate. Aeronautical experience is aeronautical experience, and single engine airplane flight experience is single engine flight experience, regardless of whether it was conducted in a light sport aircraft or not.
 
Salty said:
Although, they did make an utterly absurd call that makes training harder to do in experimental, so I guess I can’t put it past them.
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To be fair, the court pushed the issue on that, and the FAA had to quickly work around an issue. I'm not aware of the FAA taking action against anyone other than the original ride operator who was clearly outside the realm of flight instruction.
 
Brad Z said:
To be fair, the court pushed the issue on that, and the FAA had to quickly work around an issue. I'm not aware of the FAA taking action against anyone other than the original ride operator who was clearly outside the realm of flight instruction.
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This will be my last response on the subject, I’ve already been beat up enough about it.

Courts don’t just decide to push an issue out of the blue. The Faa argued the case in such a way that forced the courts to make such a ruling. They went nuclear and killed us all when all they needed was one shot from a BB gun. What that operator was doing was clearly against the rules without the Faa arguing the rule meant something that screws us all, and that contradicted everything else they’ve ever said on the matter. Somebody got way over zealous and did something idiotic.
 
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Salty said:
This will be my last response on the subject, I’ve already been beat up enough about it.

Courts don’t just decide to push an issue out of the blue. The Faa argued the case in such a way that forced the courts to make such a ruling. They went nuclear and killed us all when all they needed was one shot from a BB gun. What that operator was doing was clearly against the rules without the Faa arguing the rule meant something that screws us all, and That contradicted everything else they’ve said on the matter. Somebody got way over jealous and did something idiotic.
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So really the operator screwed us all for having appealed the FAA decision, upheld by the NTSB administrative law judge? What was the one shot from the BB gun you suggest?
 
Brad Z said:
So really the operator screwed us all for having appealed the FAA decision, upheld by the NTSB administrative law judge? What was the one shot from the BB gun you suggest?
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The defendant was not doing training. Very obvious to everyone, including a court.
 
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