Light Sport Instrument Rating tread again

Half Fast said:
It's all in how you phrase it. "Got a reference for that?" is confrontational. Instead, pick up the FAR/AIM while saying, "Wow, I didn't realize that. Can you help me find the reg?"

One is challenging the person and implying his ignorance, the other is enlisting his assistance and implying his superior wisdom. Both approaches can get you to the desired regulatory answer, but only one preserves open communication.
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No wonder nobody ever shows me regs that don’t exist!
 
MauleSkinner said:
You don’t argue, you say “got a reference for that?” and wait for them to find the reg.
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I guessing that I'm misunderstanding the student or they were misunderstanding the DPE.

I did have an instructor once that insisted that a nearby class C airspace had a mode C veil around it. I let it go ...
 
Half Fast said:
It's all in how you phrase it. "Got a reference for that?" is confrontational. Instead, pick up the FAR/AIM while saying, "Wow, I didn't realize that. Can you help me find the reg?"
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It was that way when the DPE had to learn that an experimental aircraft is not required to have a-tomato flames.
 
Daleandee said:
Thank you sir. I knew this but a recently minted sport pilot friend of mine had a DPE that insisted that the rule in G airspace was different. Who am I to argue with a DPE ...

... or a confused student pilot.
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It doesn't help that the FAA sprinkled little bits of restrictions here and there all over the regulations that override or exclude and may depend on if you have an actual sport pilot ticket or are just operating under the sport pilot rules with a private...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It doesn't help that the FAA sprinkled little bits of restrictions here and there all over the regulations that override or exclude and may depend on if you have an actual sport pilot ticket or are just operating under the sport pilot rules with a private...
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It’s that way at every level.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It doesn't help that the FAA sprinkled little bits of restrictions here and there all over the regulations that override or exclude and may depend on if you have an actual sport pilot ticket or are just operating under the sport pilot rules with a private...
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Amen!

For example, a SP is required to have a separate endorsement in order to use towered airports. The assumption has been that a PP operating under SP rules does not, since his PP training included towered airports, but I don't think the FAA has ever been explicit about that.
 
Half Fast said:
Amen!

For example, a SP is required to have a separate endorsement in order to use towered airports. The assumption has been that a PP operating under SP rules does not, since his PP training included towered airports, but I don't think the FAA has ever been explicit about that.
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Seems pretty explicit to me…
If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace
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Half Fast said:
Light Sport is a terrific way to start flying, especially since they fixed the training rules and now accept SP training toward PP. SP is a good way to start for several reasons:

1) No medical required, so no delays to solo while waiting for OKC to get around to issuing an SI and no risk of a denial.
2) The pilot is forced to fly in simple, slow planes. No students trying to buy a twin retractable to learn in.
3) Good stick & rudder skill training. Due to the low wing loading, LSAs are tricky to land in gusty or crosswind conditions. When I transitioned from a Tecnam LSA into a Cherokee, it was like having an auto-land system.
4) Unlike the Rec ticket, SP is a useful license. It's easy to get the endorsement to use towered airports, and you can fly anywhere in the US and the Bahamas. Lots of folks do serious XC flying in LSAs (witness the recent round-the-world flight). And most people with PP are flying day VFR with one or no passengers anyway, so the SP limits aren't much of a burden.
5) If you complete the SP cert, all your training counts toward PP should you decide to get a medical and continue training. Going to PP was actually pretty simple for me; I just needed the night training and a little extra hood time.
6) It's the minimal financial investment to get a pilot's license.
7) Lots of good aircraft all through the financial spectrum, from modern glass cockpit birds to classics like Ercoupes and Luscombes.​




You might consider that motor gliders can be flown without a medical. For a pilot who can no longer get a medical but has a PPL + IFR, a motor glider might be very useful.
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Really there is only one reason to go LS - you can’t pass the medical. Doing an LS and upgrading to PP is going to cost you a lot more time and money. $170 for another written test, $500 for an addition practical test, another 3 hour test prep and studying twice for the tests just to name a few.
 
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Clip4 said:
Really there is only one reason to go LS - you can’t pass the medical. Doing an LS and upgrading to PP is going to cost you a lot more time and money. $170 for another written test, $500 for an addition practical test, another 3 hour test prep and studying twice for the tests just to name a few.
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I'd say it's great for those who can get a medical but are faced with spending a lot of time and money to do so. I was able to get a medical, but I sure wasn't going to jump through the SI hoops to start out. If Basic Med hadn't been created I would have stayed with Sport.

The additional cost of another checkride is negligible in aviation terms. SP is a good way to get your feet wet if you're not sure flying will be for you. And consider how many people start PP training and never complete it. Taking a SP ride at the halfway point is a good way to ensure you can fly even if you don't finish off the rest of PP. It locks in the training to that date; training hours by themselves will time out, but the cert is good for life.
 
Clip4 said:
Really there is only one reason to go LS - you can’t pass the medical.
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Your assumption is not correct. Kinda like finding out what your mission is before buying a plane. Sport Pilot covers all I desire to do in an airplane so that's what I got.
 
Daleandee said:
Your assumption is not correct. Kinda like finding out what your mission is before buying a plane. Sport Pilot covers all I desire to do in an airplane so that's what I got.
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And (assuming you have, or can get access to, an LSA) you can be flying in less time and for less $$.
 
Half Fast said:
You might consider that motor gliders can be flown without a medical. For a pilot who can no longer get a medical but has a PPL + IFR, a motor glider might be very useful.
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I have been secretly lusting after the Pipistrel Sinus Flex, with all of the option boxes checked.
 
With what rental hours now cost - LSA are looking attractive now.
 
Clip4 said:
Really there is only one reason to go LS - you can’t pass the medical. Doing an LS and upgrading to PP is going to cost you a lot more time and money. $170 for another written test, $500 for an addition practical test, another 3 hour test prep and studying twice for the tests just to name a few.
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Another good reason to go LS…you have no need for Private Pilot privileges.
 
I’m a PP-ASEL flying with SP privileges. Before that I was flying a club 172. Moving to SP means…

I lose one adult seat. And yeah, some baggage capacity I guess.

I can’t fly at night. Kinda sucks, I do miss that. I do have half an hour before sunup and half an hour after sunset though.

My hourly cost to fly went down about $60 per hour. I cruise burning between 4.5 and 5 GPH of premium MOGAS from the local gas station.

My cruise speed went up a few knots… the club plane never had the wheel pants on.

I can do all my own repairs and maintenance, or get someone else to do it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Another good reason to go LS…you have no need for Private Pilot privileges.
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If is isn’t needed, why are we reading several times a month from LS pilots crying for more capable aircraft? Simple, they aren’t happy with the LS restrictions.
 
Clip4 said:
If is isn’t needed, why are we reading several times a month from LS pilots crying for more capable aircraft? Simple, they aren’t happy with the LS restrictions.
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We hear people crying for lots of things. That doesn’t mean that everybody wants and/or needs them.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
We hear people crying for lots of things. That doesn’t mean that everybody wants and/or needs them.
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I think it quite natural for people to seek to open new doors, embrace innovation, raise the bar, take it to new heights, etc. To say that pilots asking for more capable aircraft means they are not happy with what they have is simply not correct. Does eveybody want or need more than they have? No, not everyone.

But if nobody reached for the stars we'd all be here with our feet stuck on the ground.
 
Clip4 said:
I have to give the LSA crowd credit, they don’t give up trying to find the crack in the regulations. One day maybe they will figure out LSA is the crack in the regulation.
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I don't think we need to look to hard to find cracks in the regulations or the logic of the FAR at times.

As a glider pilot, I can fly at night with an appropriately equipped aircraft. I can also get a clearance above 18,000 feet for a mountain wave in certain conditions. As a sport pilot, I'm limited to 10,000 and day VFR. My questions stems from the fact that so many so getting an IFR rating makes you a better pilot and flying in the system is better. I didn't say i always wanted to fly in IMC, etc I don't mind paying for the training, but sure be nice to have something to show for it on the back end.
 
Dave Anderson said:
Isn't there a difference in flying IFR to be in the system and flying IMC? I actually know a pipistrel pilot that flies IFR often, just not IMC.
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You can’t fly IMC without “being in the system” under the IFR control of ATC.

If in VMC you can also ask to fly under IFR - ATC control if you wish. I understand many do for separation, etc. The same IFR rules apply whether you’re in IMC or VMC.

And of course in Alpha you must be IFR regardless of visibility.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
It doesn't help that the FAA sprinkled little bits of restrictions here and there all over the regulations that override or exclude and may depend on if you have an actual sport pilot ticket or are just operating under the sport pilot rules with a private...
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The way I look at it, they did provide a handy table in 61.303, which covers all the permutations of certificates and privileges that a person might have. It does require careful reading, however.
 
Clip4 said:
If is isn’t needed, why are we reading several times a month from LS pilots crying for more capable aircraft? Simple, they aren’t happy with the LS restrictions.
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Not all of the people exercising sport-pilot privileges have the same needs.
 
Half Fast said:
Amen!

For example, a SP is required to have a separate endorsement in order to use towered airports. The assumption has been that a PP operating under SP rules does not, since his PP training included towered airports, but I don't think the FAA has ever been explicit about that.
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It's explicit in 61.303(a)(2)(ii)(A)(1) that if you hold at least a recreational pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class ratings, then you don't have to hold any of the light-sport endorsements.
 
The low speed, high speed thing required for sport pilots is a little mystifying i.e. 14 CFR § 61.315 (c) (14) (i) (ii). I understand the reasoning but I don't see why this is not required for others. Perhaps some accidents could be prevented if pilots of much heavier, faster aircraft were required to have low speed training when moving into a light sport aircraft.

Then again most pilots, with any brains at all in their head, are smart enough to get training in a different aircraft that they are going to be flying/buying.
 
Daleandee said:
The low speed, high speed thing required for sport pilots is a little mystifying i.e. 14 CFR § 61.315 (c) (14) (i) (ii). I understand the reasoning but I don't see why this is not required for others. Perhaps some accidents could be prevented if pilots of much heavier, faster aircraft were required to have low speed training when moving into a light sport aircraft.

Then again most pilots, with any brains at all in their head, are smart enough to get training in a different aircraft that they are going to be flying/buying.
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Perhaps some accidents could be prevented if flight training wasn’t so aircraft-specific that pilots could transition without requiring additional training.
 
Daleandee said:
The low speed, high speed thing required for sport pilots is a little mystifying i.e. 14 CFR § 61.315 (c) (14) (i) (ii). I understand the reasoning but I don't see why this is not required for others. Perhaps some accidents could be prevented if pilots of much heavier, faster aircraft were required to have low speed training when moving into a light sport aircraft.
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You have to look back to the origin of SP/LSA, which was originally intended as a way to make all the "fat ultralights" legal, they didn't want somebody who had only ever flown ultralights or 2 seat "ultralight trainers", i.e. fat ultralights, to jump in a faster heavier plane and crash. The other way, too, a lot of certificated pilots got into ultralights thinking they were an easy to fly toy, and promptly crashed because they don't fly the same as a "normal" GA airplane.
 
Dana said:
You have to look back to the origin of SP/LSA, which was originally intended as a way to make all the "fat ultralights" legal, they didn't want somebody who had only ever flown ultralights or 2 seat "ultralight trainers", i.e. fat ultralights, to jump in a faster heavier plane and crash. The other way, too, a lot of certificated pilots got into ultralights thinking they were an easy to fly toy, and promptly crashed because they don't fly the same as a "normal" GA airplane.
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I went through that process and had to get a high speed endorsement.

Consider the great difference to be found between a Cessna 172 & a Piper Cub (tailwheel aside). Some train in a Cirrus and they would be quite different than an older Luscombe.

But only Sport pilots are required to have endorsements for various speed aircraft. In fact in the beginning only a higher speed endorsement was required. The lower speed endorsement was added later.
 
Daleandee said:
I went through that process and had to get a high speed endorsement.

Consider the great difference to be found between a Cessna 172 & a Piper Cub (tailwheel aside). Some train in a Cirrus and they would be quite different than an older Luscombe.

But only Sport pilots are required to have endorsements for various speed aircraft. In fact in the beginning only a higher speed endorsement was required. The lower speed endorsement was added later.
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Regs are written with a specific group (or even individual) in mind. Often that’s the only context within which they make sense. The dividing lines appear (and often are) very arbitrary.
 
Half Fast said:
Light Sport is a terrific way to start flying, especially since they fixed the training rules and now accept SP training toward PP. SP is a good way to start for several reasons:
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Biggest problem around here is finding anyone that rents and trains in Light Sport Aircraft. None within 100 miles that I am aware of.

I would say the introduction of BasicMed severely impacted the future of the LSA market. If we could get what we truly wanted, elimination of the 3rd class medical, LSA would be a moot point.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Biggest problem around here is finding anyone that rents and trains in Light Sport Aircraft. None within 100 miles that I am aware of.

I would say the introduction of BasicMed severely impacted the future of the LSA market. If we could get what we truly wanted, elimination of the 3rd class medical, LSA would be a moot point.
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Curious to see where this lands when Mosiac comes into fruition Now we are going to potentially have an expanded definition of LSA or whatever they choose to call it this week. What impact will that have on these discussions, if any
 
midwestpa24 said:
Biggest problem around here is finding anyone that rents and trains in Light Sport Aircraft. None within 100 miles that I am aware of.

I would say the introduction of BasicMed severely impacted the future of the LSA market. If we could get what we truly wanted, elimination of the 3rd class medical, LSA would be a moot point.
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Where is here?
 
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