Cirrus accident, Knoxville, TN 12/16/21

That's all part of this. Using an Extra 300 ... :biggrin:

Extras are way cool, but from a training perspective a lowly Citabria or Decathlon would better replicate the roll rate of your typical GA plane. The hard part is holding in that roll for 3 or 4 seconds while the nose falls through, and then recovering from the resulting dive without an accelerated stall or ripping your wings off. But I'm sure the instructors know what they are doing and will prepare you well. And spins are great, really demystify what comes after stalls.
 
Extras are way cool, but from a training perspective a lowly Citabria or Decathlon would better replicate the roll rate of your typical GA plane. The hard part is holding in that roll for 3 or 4 seconds while the nose falls through, and then recovering from the resulting dive without an accelerated stall or ripping your wings off. But I'm sure the instructors know what they are doing and will prepare you well. And spins are great, really demystify what comes after stalls.

The only problem with the extras is the 15 gallon tank for aerobatic action. Really limits your time on station.
 
Like this guy. Encountering wake turbulence was probably the last thing on his mind.


About twenty five seconds elapsed between the time the helicopter exited the right side of the video frame and the accident aircraft appeared on the left side of the frame. The helicopter pilot rolled the Blackhawk into a fairly steep pitch and bank while entering ETL, which may have directed the rotor downwash in an unexpected manner.

Thinking back on other wake turbulence accident videos I've seen, they all share a common trait. The trailing aircraft is shaken like a rat in a dog's jaws, flips inverted, and there's almost no chance at all to recover controlled flight at a typical short final attitude. It happens quickly, and the upset is so severe and disorienting, that unless the pilot has specific training he will not successfully survive the encounter.
 
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The trailing aircraft is shaken like a rat in a dog's jaws, flips inverted, and there's almost no chance at all to recover controlled flight at a typical short final attitude. It happens quickly, and the upset is so severe and disorienting, that unless the pilot has specific training he will not successfully survive the encounter.

this
 
Like this guy. Encountering wake turbulence was probably the last thing on his mind.

The blackhawk lifts off basically a couple of seconds prior to the beginning of the video. I'm guessing he sat there with the rotor spinning for some amount of time. Probably off the end of the runway 10-15 secs. later.

Approx. 29 sec. into the video, this guy hits the wake right about where the Blackhawk took off.
Obviously it wasn't enough.
Anyone know what's safe? A minute?... longer?

Also, the plane hit pretty hard on the nose. Kind of surprising to see him appear to climb out of the plane standing and/or walking at about 55 sec.
 
sorry if you've seen this before, but this is amazing footage of wake turbulence:

Seems like that plane could do a low approach to create its own visibility: foggy, no problem, do low approach, go around, land with clear visibility.
 
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Approx. 29 sec. into the video, this guy hits the wake right about where the Blackhawk took off.
Obviously it wasn't enough.
Anyone know what's safe? A minute?... longer?

Also, the plane hit pretty hard on the nose. Kind of surprising to see him appear to climb out of the plane standing and/or walking at about 55 sec.[/QUOTE]

I think the rule of thumb is five minutes but the faa says two, unless there are strong winds that will move the wake turbulence away faster.
 
I fly mostly out of a class D with regionals and an air national guard wing; constantly dodging wake turbulence from C130’s (who are in the pattern interminably) F16’s and regionals. Many, many a time have I requested an extended downwind or just told them I was leaving to sightsee while I let things clear up for five or ten minutes. Ditto extending my ground time waiting for things to blow away.
 
On my first solo landing as a student, at Fayetteville NC in 1993, I extended downwind for a 727 on final.
 
From the FAA [AIM]: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap7_section_4.html

"Pilots should be alert at all times for possible wake vortex encounters when conducting approach and landing operations. The pilot is ultimately responsible for maintaining an appropriate interval, and should consider all available information in positioning the aircraft in the terminal area, to avoid the wake turbulence created by a preceding aircraft."

"WHETHER OR NOT A WARNING OR INFORMATION HAS BEEN GIVEN, HOWEVER, THE PILOT IS EXPECTED TO ADJUST AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS AND FLIGHT PATH AS NECESSARY TO PRECLUDE SERIOUS WAKE ENCOUNTERS"
 
There is a fairly thriving market for unusual attitude / upset recovery training. I have never taken UPRT but presumably this is one of the situations they teach how to deal with.

It does not take Kirby Chambliss skills or Extra 300SC performance to roll upright. Given sufficient altitude, all it takes is an hour or two of instruction on what to do and what not to do.

The kicker of course is the phrase "sufficient altitude." Down at a few hundred feet, it would take a competent aerobatic pilot to recover, because you are going to have to do some non-intuitive things. Up at 1000 feet, I think most pilots could recover, especially if they previously had tried it a few times in a training environment.
Your post got me reading this:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2000/may/pilot/loops-spins-and-rolls
particularly this part:
"This unit consists of a discussion of wake turbulence—its cause and effects—with briefing on recovery procedures. The half-slow-roll (crossed-control initially) recovery is not taught. Instead, the aileron-and-rudder-together method of rolling is taught, as would likely be used by a pilot in an inverted position to get back upright—and damn the resulting heading. (Few would have the presence of mind to cross-control under the stress of a real upset unless they were experienced acro pilots.)"

Is this the non-intuitive action you were speaking of? This is somewhat confusing to me, because isn't the 2nd half of a slow roll (from inverted to upright) done with aileron and rudder in the same direction(both left or right)? And the second half would be the upset recovery portion right? I'm not an acrobatic pilot btw. Just curious. Maybe the author was just saying they don't teach the first half of the slow roll I guess.

Thanks.
 
Your post got me reading this:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2000/may/pilot/loops-spins-and-rolls
particularly this part:
"This unit consists of a discussion of wake turbulence—its cause and effects—with briefing on recovery procedures. The half-slow-roll (crossed-control initially) recovery is not taught. Instead, the aileron-and-rudder-together method of rolling is taught, as would likely be used by a pilot in an inverted position to get back upright—and damn the resulting heading. (Few would have the presence of mind to cross-control under the stress of a real upset unless they were experienced acro pilots.)"

Is this the non-intuitive action you were speaking of? This is somewhat confusing to me, because isn't the 2nd half of a slow roll (from inverted to upright) done with aileron and rudder in the same direction(both left or right)? And the second half would be the upset recovery portion right? I'm not an acrobatic pilot btw. Just curious. Maybe the author was just saying they don't teach the first half of the slow roll I guess.
Thanks.

Well, as a quick review of aerobatic technique, there are 2 methods of rolling (3 if you count the barrel roll, which isn't a roll, but I digress). First is the aileron roll, which is not a competition maneuver. This is a roll performed using aileron only. Elevator and rudder remain neutral. Because no control inputs are used to counteract reduced lift during knife edge and inverted flight, the nose drops and results in a dive at the end. To avoid finishing in a steep dive, the maneuver is commonly flown by pitching the nose up to 20 or 30 degrees. The slower the roll rate, the more you need to pitch up.

The other type of roll is a slow roll, which is a competition maneuver and has standard judging criteria. Note the name has nothing to do with the speed or roll rate at which the maneuver is performed. In a slow roll, the objective is to draw a straight line through the sky, eg level flight with no deviation in heading. To do so, you must constantly vary the rudder and elevator inputs to counteract for the effects of reduced lift and adverse yaw.

The diagram below will help explain the sequence of control inputs, though the description is a bit wonky because the picture depicts a roll to the right instead of the more common left roll in western aircraft.

roll small.jpg

From position 1, you start with slight right rudder to counteract adverse yaw, then increasing amounts of left rudder. At position 2 you will have a large amount of left rudder deflection to generate lift using the side of the fuselage in knife edge flight. From 2 to 3 you continue with left rudder and add forward stick to generate lift in inverted flight. From 3 to 4 you would reduce stick input to neutral and transition to a large amount of right rudder to generate lift in knife edge flight. From 4 to 5 you add some back stick and reduced right rudder. I'm skipping some of the nuances of the timing to focus on the gross inputs.

One difference between normal and aerobatic aircraft factors into this discussion. Most normal aircraft have flat bottom airfoils. That means they require a substantially greater nose high attitude to generate lift than a typical aerobatic aircraft with symmetrical airfoils would. Your nose will need to be WELL above the horizon.

If you roll inverted with some altitude, say 1000 feet like the Cirrus reportedly was, a simple half aileron roll should be sufficient to get you upright. Your nose is going to fall through and you will lose some altitude, but the roll only takes a few seconds and you should be able to cut power and recover from the dive. IMO almost any pilot should be able to do this, as long as you react quickly with full aileron and neutral elevator.

If you rolled inverted at low altitude in a GA aircraft, you would need to fly a slow roll to avoid altitude loss. So your immediate action would be a decisive amount of forward stick to get the nose up and generate lift while inverted. When you do that, you will experience negative G force, at least -1 and probably -2 G. You will be hanging upside down in your seatbelt, which is disorienting the first time you experience it, especially in a crappy 3 point belt that probably wasn't that tight because you weren't expecting to fly inverted.

The rudder is less important. You aren't going to generate a whole lot of lift in knife edge flight at approach airspeed, and adverse yaw is not relevant. Every bit helps, but the rudder is probably not what determines success unless you are right at ground level. But the aggressive forward stick while inverted would be essential, and very non-intuitive if you have not done it before.

Here is a video of a 720 degree roll I filmed in my Decathlon last week. I am by no means a skilled competitor so it is quite rough. However, it is useful to illustrate because my aircraft has a very slow roll rate, probably comparable to most normal category aircraft. Watch how the tip of the spinner inscribes a circle around a point on the horizon, and note how high the nose is when fully inverted. Also notice the half roll from inverted to upright only takes about 3 seconds.

 
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^I like the left handed high-brace
 
^I like the left handed high-brace

That's actually a symptom of my aircraft being poorly equipped. I have the OEM 5 point harness from the 80's, which is very difficult to tighten sufficiently. I get slung around sideways when rolling through knife edge, or at least it feels that way. Am in the process of installing a Hooker 7 point harness, which has a ratchet on the lap belt to crank it down.
 
...
Here is a video of a 720 degree roll I filmed in my Decathlon last week. I am by no means a skilled competitor so it is quite rough. However, it is useful to illustrate because my aircraft has a very slow roll rate, probably comparable to most normal category aircraft. Watch how the tip of the spinner inscribes a circle around a point on the horizon, and note how high the nose is when fully inverted. Also notice the half roll from inverted to upright only takes about 3 seconds.

Looks pretty skilled to me! Thanks for the demonstration video and description. I can see how the nose is pushed high in the inverted portions. (nose down becomes nose up).
 
Very nice video.

Your roll characteristic is surprisingly similar to a Cessna Aerobat. They also require a strong push to keep the nose up.


I did an hour in one, and felt much better about the likelihood that I could roll back from any unusual attitude that I might experience, IF I HAD ENOUGH ALTITUDE.

Altitude is the essential ingredient for upset recovery.
 

You're half way there...:D

I did an hour in one, and felt much better about the likelihood that I could roll back from any unusual attitude that I might experience, IF I HAD ENOUGH ALTITUDE.

Altitude is the essential ingredient for upset recovery.

That is what I learned way back when in the Citabria, if one got rolled (or did stall spin on base to final turn) on short final, you're done!
 
One of the things that we did during my upset recovery training was: What should you do if you get rolled 180 degrees by wake turbulence? Continue the roll or roll back?

The answer (given) was roll back. The reason why is that A) You're inverted with either neutral controls or maybe a bit of opposite roll because you had time to try and counter act the roll. B) Your brain is probably already preparing to correct with opposite roll so to counteract that will take more time.

During the exercise I was able to continue the roll just a bit faster than reverse the roll. But I knew what was coming. At one point the instructor unexpectedly snatched the stick and yelled "wake turbulence!" and rolled the plane inverted. I reversed the roll. Halfway back to upright I had the thought that I should have continued the roll. I guess the other factor is how far has the plane rolled before you start applying corrective control inputs. What if the wake turbulence only rolls you 1/3 of the way? Probably not a good idea to continue the roll at that point.

In the end, I think that it's one of those things that is kind of difficult to prove or disprove in a real world environment give the variables and actual human reaction time.
 
One of the things that we did during my upset recovery training was: What should you do if you get rolled 180 degrees by wake turbulence? Continue the roll or roll back?

The answer (given) was roll back…

That sounds counterintuitive, and seems to suggest you know you’re out of the vortex. If you were still in it, wouldn’t trying to “roll back” run the risk of your control inputs being just enough to hold you inverted?
 
That's one of those "every situation is different, so fly the plane" kind of things. I think as a general proposition, you should roll in whichever direction is the shortest path back to upright. If I had rolled exactly 180 degrees, no more no less, I would probably continue the roll under the supposition that the vortex might still be carrying me that way. But who really knows. Most important is making an instant decision and taking action. Like an incipient spin, the line between recoverable and not is a second or two.

Back to the original discussion. Could this Cirrus have rolled out, and would that have given a better chance of success than firing a parachute while inverted? I say the answer depends on altitude. At 1000 feet, I think any pilot with upset training should be able to handle it. At 200-300 feet, it would take a skilled aerobatic pilot and a lot of luck. In between, it depends on your skill, the aircraft, the attitude at which the vortex leaves you, etc.

But I also think there is an altitude below which successful deployment of a ballistic parachute while inverted is impossible. I don't know what that altitude is, but it is at least twice the distance from the aircraft to the apex of the chute. Below that, deploying the chute would cause certain death, because the aircraft has to fall from above the canopy to below it before the parachute begins to arrest the descent rate. Personally, I would prefer to take my chances with my stick and rudder skills. YMMV.
 
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Any recommendations for upset recovery training in the midwest? (sorry mods this probably belongs in it's own thread)
 
About twenty five seconds elapsed between the time the helicopter exited the right side of the video frame and the accident aircraft appeared on the left side of the frame. The helicopter pilot rolled the Blackhawk into a fairly steep pitch and bank while entering ETL, which may have directed the rotor downwash in an unexpected manner.

Thinking back on other wake turbulence accident videos I've seen, they all share a common trait. The trailing aircraft is shaken like a rat in a dog's jaws, flips inverted, and there's almost no chance at all to recover controlled flight at a typical short final attitude. It happens quickly, and the upset is so severe and disorienting, that unless the pilot has specific training he will not successfully survive the encounter.
I'm really curious,what a training scenario looks like here? Is that use rudder for control vs ailerons like in a spin?
 
Thought about this thread as approach put me on vectors to cross 1 NM behind and 800 feet below a C-5. The point out was hilarious, “Cessna 785, traffic 12 o’clock 3mi, heavy C-5 in the climb, caution wake turbulence.”

Yep, I see the whale floating thru the sky, can’t freaking miss it. Followed that thought with “not today, Satan, not today.”
 
approach put me on vectors to cross 1 NM behind and 800 feet below a C-5.

That’s unfortunate.

When operating within 2,500 feet of the flight path of the leading aircraft over the surface of the earth and less than 1,000 feet below:
(a) TERMINAL. Behind super: (1) Heavy - 6 miles.
(2) Large - 7 miles.
(3) Small - 8 miles.
(b) EN ROUTE. Behind super - 5 miles, unless the super is operating at or below FL240 and below 250 knots, then:
(1) Heavy - 6 miles. (2) Large - 7 miles. (3) Small - 8 miles.
(c) Behind heavy:
(1) Heavy - 4 miles.
(2) Large or small - 5 miles.
 
I find it hilarious that someone felt it necessary to specify "over the surface of the earth" in this. :D
It’s because they know controllers. Without that, they would have called an error on a controller for only having 2000 ft and the controller would show the slant range math of more than 2500. :)
 
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