How long to schedule plane?

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

Line Up and Wait
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Terry
Not exactly training, per se. Returning as a renter after 10 years away the schedule is much more crowded and much more disciplined.

How do you determine how long to schedule the plane if you’re going somewhere for less than a day/overnight. For example, if I am flying 45 minutes by ear for lunch, what time would you block off in the schedule?

I’ll take a closer notice but I think it takes me about 40 minutes to get from the flight school office to the hangar, open it up, pre flight, pull out the plane and start up. I’m a nervous pre flightier, so I’m checking and rechecking. Maybe this is too long.

Then 45 minutes in flight there. Towered airport. What do you estimate to taxi and shut down. Pre flight coming back should be quicker and then taxi out. 45 minutes in the air back and then shut down, order fuel and put away.

So 1.5 airtime could be like a 5-hour block?

1.5 pre flight and putting back away walking to/from hangar and flight school.
1.5 in the air.
.75-1.0 for lunch
.5 pre flight and taxiing in/out while there?

How do people do this in the real world? This is why renting is a downer for me.
 
With your pre-postfilght requirements, and the obvious 2-mile trip from the office to the airplane, yes, your lunch trip is 5hr on the clock.

If you can figure out a more streamlined and organized way to preflight, than the seeming Captain Chaos approach that you're using you'll cut some time, but still bring yourself to 4.5?
 
I didn't see any time for "recency" checkouts. After 10 years?

Maybe that's already been taken care of. And the BFR too.
 
JoeSelch said:
Huh?
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Based on "Returning as a renter after 10 years away"

FAR 61.57, Recent flight experience: Pilot in command

The requirements for carriage of passengers, three landings and takeoff in the past 90 days. even if you aren't carrying any passengers, some rental outfits require a basic checkride if you haven't logged any "recent" hours.

Now I could have completely misinterpreted the sentence. Maybe he was returning to renting airplanes after having owned his own for ten years. In which case he may have just sold his aircraft of the same type and class, and is now renting a similar one. In that case, he would probably be able to show recent logbook activity which satisfies the rental company. The same would also apply for the BFR (61.56). He would have kept current on the Flight Review.

If that's the case, then never mind. I just know that one issue some of my coworkers have is that they end up buying an extra hour on the Hobbs meter for a checkride since they only rent maybe twice a year any more.
 
Dry Creek said:
Based on "Returning as a renter after 10 years away"

FAR 61.57, Recent flight experience: Pilot in command

The requirements for carriage of passengers, three landings and takeoff in the past 90 days. even if you aren't carrying any passengers, some rental outfits require a basic checkride if you haven't logged any "recent" hours.

Now I could have completely misinterpreted the sentence. Maybe he was returning to renting airplanes after having owned his own for ten years. In which case he may have just sold his aircraft of the same type and class, and is now renting a similar one. In that case, he would probably be able to show recent logbook activity which satisfies the rental company. The same would also apply for the BFR (61.56). He would have kept current on the Flight Review.

If that's the case, then never mind. I just know that one issue some of my coworkers have is that they end up buying an extra hour on the Hobbs meter for a checkride since they only rent maybe twice a year any more.
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You've totally read too much into Terry's question - he's just trying to work out how much time he needs to block off on the rental calendar in order to make a hamburger run.
 
It's better to have to much time rather than too little. I would always make sure to pad both ends to make sure there wouldn't be someone waiting on me to get back, and that I wouldn't be waiting on someone else. It's real irritating to be rushed because the previous guy overran his reservation by 20 minutes.

If I wanted to be at lunch at noon somewhere 45m away, I'd round that up to an hour and add another hour for buffer, preflight, etc. 1.5 to eat, hour home, hour buffer. Reservation 1000-1530. No reason to add time pressure to yourself. My club used "aircraftclubs.com" which has an option to send out an email if you returned early, so the next guy knew the plane was available. I assume you pay by Hobbs; they aren't somehow charging per hour you reserve are they?
 
@Dry Creek checkout and FR completed in December. 3 flights around 4.5 hours with some nice x-wind landings and the required ground. Went over airspace and cloud clearances and some weather planning etc.

Went on my first solo in 10 years just before Xmas.

What I noticed, compared to 10 years ago, is the schedule is now packed. 10 planes all mostly booked back to back. If you’re 20-min late, even during the week, you are messing up someone’s plan.

When I last flew they had 1/2 as many planes and wide open schedules during the week. Weekends were tough.

Ive never really used GA before. Lots of 51 nm out, land and come back. Never really getting out of the plane etc.

This time around, I’d like to actually use it for fun. Renting makes that hard but owning isn’t in the cards right now. Partnerships aren’t plentiful or at least not easy to find. Clubs near here have waiting lists.

It’s a different ballgame from when I stepped away.
 
JoeSelch said:
You've totally read too much into Terry's question - he's just trying to work out how much time he needs to block off on the rental calendar in order to make a hamburger run.
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Mea culpa.
 
The big question is there any charge for rental time or is it strictly Hobbs time? Some rental places and clubs have minimum and maximums for blocking off time and some charge a nominal fee for each hour blocked off in addition to the flight time charges. 5 hours seems a little much to me for a 1.5 of fight time plus lunch. Do you really need the plane from 10am to 3pm just to go somewhere for a quick bite to eat?. I think a half hour for pre and post flight, the 1.5 hours of flying and 1 hour for lunch would be more reasonable and respectful of others who are trying to rent that same day.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Dry Creek checkout and FR completed in December. 3 flights around 4.5 hours with some nice x-wind landings and the required ground. Went over airspace and cloud clearances and some weather planning etc.

Went on my first solo in 10 years just before Xmas.

What I noticed, compared to 10 years ago, is the schedule is now packed. 10 planes all mostly booked back to back. If you’re 20-min late, even during the week, you are messing up someone’s plan.

When I last flew they had 1/2 as many planes and wide open schedules during the week. Weekends were tough.

Ive never really used GA before. Lots of 51 nm out, land and come back. Never really getting out of the plane etc.

This time around, I’d like to actually use it for fun. Renting makes that hard but owning isn’t in the cards right now. Partnerships aren’t plentiful or at least not easy to find. Clubs near here have waiting lists.

It’s a different ballgame from when I stepped away.
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Who you been using? Assuming blue skies? Have you checked with the folks at 10c. They run Cessna's however. My Cherokee is with them now for annual
 
Considering you are still getting back in the swing of things and comfort zone, nothing at all wrong with taking a little extra time in the pre-flight (no reason to add urgency and worry about time) and there is nothing wrong with giving yourself a cushion on getting back before the next renter is ready for it. If they'll let you, book it for the 5 hours the first time or two until you're comfortable and then you can book it in a tighter window going forward based on your experiences!
 
We have daily and 3 hr minimums.. for the burger run 5 is my 'go to'.. for putzing around 2.5 is my go to.

You should be considerate of other renters too.. minimums aside if you are in a busy school or club it's kind of lousy to book a plane from 9am to 7pm only to fly it from 11-3 and put 1.8 on the hobbes..
 
I never let others rush me anywhere else. Why would I allow myself to be rushed by my own scheduling. If you need 5 hours for the entire process then book 5 hours. If you can make your process more efficient and are comfortable with it then do so. I went up with a CFI to get my Night landings in since it had been a while. He was in a hurry. I told him if he was in a hurry he was more than welcome to handle the taxi, radio, and run up. I'm a new pilot and still go through it from a printed checklist. He does it so much he has dreams about checklists. But when it came to my parts I did my thing at my pace.
 
@Groundpounder tgis is fair feedback. I’m “slow” and cautious in everything and a little more nervous than the average 4-500 hr pilot every time I go up.

Now - I haven’t been up solo other than once in 10-years, but I was a nervous pilot back then too.

I’ll time it next time I rent and see how long it takes.
 
@Tantalum that's what I’m thinking. This flight school is booming and these guys have lessons. I’m putzing around maybe grabbing a burger . . . Highest/best use? Should I be preventing these guys getting lessons.

I don’t want to let the license lapse again but the rental gig will lose its luster somewhat soon, I’m guessing.

I love being back up there and talking to approach, tower and ground gives me a little tingle like back when I was working towards my never earned IR.

But as a renter, I’m never going to take the plane for a weekend and even lunch seems tricky. Dinner would be ok because they’re schedule is open after hours.

I used to fly at night after I put my kids down, but now they are older and go to bed 8:30-11. Hard to sneak away at midnight to go flying and available for work stuff the next morning.

@kmacht they only charge for Hobbs time but I’ve never abused that. I’ve got around 450 hrs, probably 250 renting from this place. I’ve only really done 1 trip in those 250 hours and I was back sameday. 6 hrs on the plane.
 
I guess I could get checked out in the new to them Arrow. That’s more open on their schedule but . . . At 47 having never put gear down in 27 years, I’m not sure I want that memory risk.
 
I’ve booked lessons before and some instructors block off 2 hours which in my opinion is too rushed and we ended up ending the lesson early to return on time, so in my eyes it was a wasted lesson. A lot of the younger generation are the get in and get out types, whereas at the club I go to, people typically stick around to chat all things aviation.

Personally I like to block 3-4 hours (usually 3 hours) for a lesson so there’s time for a proper chat upon arrival, preflight, the flight, return and post flight.

If I was going somewhere, I would block an extra 2 hours from my estimated time of return or better yet just block the whole day, usually there is a remarks section so you can write lunch to KJVL estimated return 3pm, then the other club members will see you blocked until 4pm but they might arrive early to see if you’re back early or check your whereabouts on flightaware. Most flying clubs have a 1-2 hour minimum per day on the Hobbs, you can easily meet this and even if not I don’t think my club would charge the difference. Some clubs are not GA friendly and are a money grab, you do have choices as a customer where you fly. Aviation is not something you want to be rushed with, that’s when mistakes happen! Then you might never be back.
 
@Racerx im about equidistant from C81, 3CK and 06C. I couldn’t find much to get back into aviation at Campbell (one younger CFI with a C-150 reached out to me). Blue Skies I know well having rented there and pursued my IR with them right before I got laid off.

My CFII, however, broke off and started his own flight school at 3CK, but due to some COVID concerns from my wife and him not being vaccinated or masking, I did go Blue Skies. Renting their Skyhawks recently but have most of my time in pipers (140s, Warriors and Archers).

When I stick this out, I’ll likely pursue my Iar with him though. He’s really good.

Other than Schaumburg Flying Club I haven’t looked that closely at 06C. I’ve had a few conversations with Northwest Flyers there but have never flown with them.

GALT - awesome airport. I read the book even! I rented LSA there a few times but it’s 45 minutes one way before I even get a dispatch. With kids in travel sports and my job I couldn’t make that work, really.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Tantalum that's what I’m thinking. This flight school is booming and these guys have lessons. I’m putzing around maybe grabbing a burger . . . Highest/best use? Should I be preventing these guys getting lessons.

I don’t want to let the license lapse again but the rental gig will lose its luster somewhat soon, I’m guessing.

I love being back up there and talking to approach, tower and ground gives me a little tingle like back when I was working towards my never earned IR.

But as a renter, I’m never going to take the plane for a weekend and even lunch seems tricky. Dinner would be ok because they’re schedule is open after hours.

I used to fly at night after I put my kids down, but now they are older and go to bed 8:30-11. Hard to sneak away at midnight to go flying and available for work stuff the next morning.

@kmacht they only charge for Hobbs time but I’ve never abused that. I’ve got around 450 hrs, probably 250 renting from this place. I’ve only really done 1 trip in those 250 hours and I was back sameday. 6 hrs on the plane.
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You are not preventing others from having lessons. Your club not having enough planes is preventing others from having lessons. It should slow down in the winter or on certain days. The club is meant for training and traveling, not just training.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Groundpounder tgis is fair feedback. I’m “slow” and cautious in everything and a little more nervous than the average 4-500 hr pilot every time I go up.

Now - I haven’t been up solo other than once in 10-years, but I was a nervous pilot back then too.

I’ll time it next time I rent and see how long it takes.
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It's not so much that you want to be "quick". Ideally, you do your preflight in a way that is efficient. The end result is that you're faster than someone who isn't efficient. I always preflight in exactly the same way, and it helps with two things - I'm a lot faster than I would be if I changed it up all the time and had to remember if I did everything, and I am more likely to catch my error if I miss something because skipping something throws off my routine.

And I think that there is nothing wrong with you taking the plane for a trip every now and then, even if it messes with student schedules. Maybe just work on getting more comfy with the idea of less time blocked off for a trip of that length as you try it a few times and see how your actual time stacks up against your imagined time. I'm not sure how it works at a towered airport, but at the untowered airport that I flew from, if another student or renter was scheduled directly after you, you parked the plane on the ramp and neither of you had to add extra time for putting the plane back or taking it out again.

mandm said:
I’ve booked lessons before and some instructors block off 2 hours which in my opinion is too rushed and we ended up ending the lesson early to return on time, so in my eyes it was a wasted lesson. A lot of the younger generation are the get in and get out types, whereas at the club I go to, people typically stick around to chat all things aviation.

Personally I like to block 3-4 hours (usually 3 hours) for a lesson so there’s time for a proper chat upon arrival, preflight, the flight, return and post flight.

If I was going somewhere, I would block an extra 2 hours from my estimated time of return or better yet just block the whole day, usually there is a remarks section so you can write lunch to KJVL estimated return 3pm, then the other club members will see you blocked until 4pm but they might arrive early to see if you’re back early or check your whereabouts on flightaware. Most flying clubs have a 1-2 hour minimum per day on the Hobbs, you can easily meet this and even if not I don’t think my club would charge the difference. Some clubs are not GA friendly and are a money grab, you do have choices as a customer where you fly. Aviation is not something you want to be rushed with, that’s when mistakes happen! Then you might never be back.
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So...you block off the plane even for time you're not planning on flying? I'd show up before the block of plane time started so as much of that plane time could be spent flying as possible, and my instructor and I always did our postflight chat in the FBO, so for the 2 hour block of plane time, we could easily be flying for 1.5 hours or more of it. The only time I blocked the plane out for more than 3-4 hours was on my checkride day, when I blocked it out for 7 hours. Blocking it out for the entire day doesn't sound very courteous if you aren't planning on using the plane for the whole day. :confused:
 
SkyChaser said:
It's not so much that you want to be "quick". Ideally, you do your preflight in a way that is efficient. The end result is that you're faster than someone who isn't efficient. I always preflight in exactly the same way, and it helps with two things - I'm a lot faster than I would be if I changed it up all the time and had to remember if I did everything, and I am more likely to catch my error if I miss something because skipping something throws off my routine.

And I think that there is nothing wrong with you taking the plane for a trip every now and then, even if it messes with student schedules. Maybe just work on getting more comfy with the idea of less time blocked off for a trip of that length as you try it a few times and see how your actual time stacks up against your imagined time. I'm not sure how it works at a towered airport, but at the untowered airport that I flew from, if another student or renter was scheduled directly after you, you parked the plane on the ramp and neither of you had to add extra time for putting the plane back or taking it out again.



So...you block off the plane even for time you're not planning on flying? I'd show up before the block of plane time started so as much of that plane time could be spent flying as possible, and my instructor and I always did our postflight chat in the FBO, so for the 2 hour block of plane time, we could easily be flying for 1.5 hours or more of it. The only time I blocked the plane out for more than 3-4 hours was on my checkride day, when I blocked it out for 7 hours. Blocking it out for the entire day doesn't sound very courteous if you aren't planning on using the plane for the whole day. :confused:
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I am still a new pilot, and I train directly with the Chief Flight Instructor at the club I go to. This is also his position. Don’t rush, don’t mess with weather, take your time. I kind of feel like you guys here are rushing a pilot who is already saying he is nervous. Give him a break and the extra time he deserves for the probably one time he wants to rent the plane to go somewhere for lunch. :D
 
If I'm the only one flying a GA plane, I can do it in short order. If I'm flying a rental, I'm going to take a closer look. You won't believe the crap I found over the years. The weird part is a 40 minute walk from the office to the plane. Even the times I used to fly out of a school whose office was in a building off the field, it only took a few minutes to drive to a parking space near the plane tiedowns.

The sweetest deal was the old flying club I was in that gave you a set of keys and the W&B paperwork for every plane you flew. You could do all your preplanning at home and head straight to the plane. Even if someone just returned it, there was no delay (other than to get fuel if needed).
 
mandm said:
I am still a new pilot, and I train directly with the Chief Flight Instructor at the club I go to. This is also his position. Don’t rush, don’t mess with weather, take your time. I kind of feel like you guys here are rushing a pilot who is already saying he is nervous. Give him a break and the extra time he deserves for the probably one time he wants to rent the plane to go somewhere for lunch. :D
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I'm still a brand new pilot, too. It's not even been a year since I got my cert, and I haven't even hit 100 hours yet. I definitely don't advocate rushing, because that's how things get skipped or missed. I was advocating a way to be both more confident in the quality of and have a quicker "clock time" for, his preflight as a way to have a shorter block time and more time flying and/or eating. :)
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Racerx im about equidistant from C81, 3CK and 06C. I couldn’t find much to get back into aviation at Campbell (one younger CFI with a C-150 reached out to me). Blue Skies I know well having rented there and pursued my IR with them right before I got laid off.

My CFII, however, broke off and started his own flight school at 3CK, but due to some COVID concerns from my wife and him not being vaccinated or masking, I did go Blue Skies. Renting their Skyhawks recently but have most of my time in pipers (140s, Warriors and Archers).

When I stick this out, I’ll likely pursue my Iar with him though. He’s really good.

Other than Schaumburg Flying Club I haven’t looked that closely at 06C. I’ve had a few conversations with Northwest Flyers there but have never flown with them.

GALT - awesome airport. I read the book even! I rented LSA there a few times but it’s 45 minutes one way before I even get a dispatch. With kids in travel sports and my job I couldn’t make that work, really.
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A customer of mine uses that instructor at 3ck, he likes him. I didn't think the personality was a fit for me. C81 used to have a flight school and even an FBO on field. That shut down and look at Google Earth and see how many airplanes used to be parked outside. Was something like 40 as recently as 15 years ago. Now it's just derelicts. Meanwhile 10c seems to be doing well, especially with new ownership. With that big hangar attached to the remodeled FBO building at C81 I've long thought someone could make some business work there. Preferably avionics shop with as backed up as everyone seems to be.
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Racerx im about equidistant from C81, 3CK and 06C. I couldn’t find much to get back into aviation at Campbell (one younger CFI with a C-150 reached out to me). Blue Skies I know well having rented there and pursued my IR with them right before I got laid off.

My CFII, however, broke off and started his own flight school at 3CK, but due to some COVID concerns from my wife and him not being vaccinated or masking, I did go Blue Skies. Renting their Skyhawks recently but have most of my time in pipers (140s, Warriors and Archers).

When I stick this out, I’ll likely pursue my Iar with him though. He’s really good.

Other than Schaumburg Flying Club I haven’t looked that closely at 06C. I’ve had a few conversations with Northwest Flyers there but have never flown with them.

GALT - awesome airport. I read the book even! I rented LSA there a few times but it’s 45 minutes one way before I even get a dispatch. With kids in travel sports and my job I couldn’t make that work, really.
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Have a customer that uses that instructor at 3CK. He likes him. I talked to him and while I have no doubt he's very good, I could tell the personality wasn't going to mesh for me while training.

C81 used to have a school and a shop on field. Google Earth the field and as recently as 15 years ago there was something like 30+ airplanes tied down outside. The guys running the shop retired and the big hangar to my knowledge has been vacant. Now the only planes outside are derelicts. You look at every airport around and see things booming. Granted they're all public owned. But Galt is privately owned and their new ownership really made it nice.

Have long said that big hangar attached to the fbo at c81 would make a great maintenance/avionics shop for an enterprising individual. Especially with all the local shops 4-6 months backed up.

Any word on where everyone plans on relocating when construction starts?
 
Always book more time than you think you'll need. It pretty much ruins the whole idea of flying to lunch if, for example, the service is slow and you need to rush through it just to get back on time.

As the next renter, all I really care about is that the airplane is there when I show up. I don't care what was done with it or how long it flew.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
This flight school is booming and these guys have lessons. I’m putzing around maybe grabbing a burger . . . Highest/best use? Should I be preventing these guys getting lessons.
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Yeah, I've had the same 'worry' too, but ultimately you are still paying for the plane and you have just as much right to use it as any other club member. I just wouldn't make a habit of 'hogging' it from like 9am to 7pm waiting for a potential VFR window.. apparently our club has a policy that if the plane is still at its parking spot unattended 30 minutes after the schedule has started you can over-ride the booking and grab it. I'm not sure the mechanics of it though tbh. You can always buy a plane :) haha

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I don’t want to let the license lapse again but the rental gig will lose its luster somewhat soon, I’m guessing.
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I've had similar cycles, the idea of just going flying has lost a bit of its luster for me, but to get around that you can:
-join Angel flight
-create small 'missions' like day trips with friends or family
-work on other ratings.. earning my IFR helped get me back in the swing of things, then CSIP transition opened up a new world, and October '20 I got my multi.. that has kept things interesting here

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
my never earned IR
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..speaking of, might be something to work towards!
 
I’m going to get some night time this week. I’ll see how long it really takes.

I follow the checklist. It’s a 172R so 2,000 fuel sumps and new to me avionics and just a general/mental review since probably 90% of my time is steam gauge carbureted pipers or older Cessnas.
 
I've said this before, and I think it falls on deaf ears, but you need to find a REASON to fly, else it's easy to allow this skill/hobby/(your choice of word) to die.

Personally, it's a distant second home, keeping up with remote friends and family, and general personal travel. When this isn't in demand, I fly blood for the local Flights for Life group.

Getting in the plane to just go fly, isn't a strong motivator for me at this point.
 
On the 40-minutes that was to accomplish (1) getting the dispatch & keys, (2) walking to the hangar, (3) opening the hangar, (4) pre flight, (5) pull out the plane and (6) fire it up.

They essentially removed the ramp to widen the taxiway to accommodate the wings of business jets (changed 3 years ago?). So I have to put it back in the hangar even when stacked against the next student.

I guess when I order fuel after my flight I no longer have to observe the filling and close up the doors, but that feels weird to me (rules before was you observe and lock everything up).
 
interesting conversation.
5 hour block for <2 hours flight..... in my experience it'll rarely happen because when I want to go somewhere like taht somebody will have already booked one little block from say 1PM to 2PM...right smack dab in the middle of my excursion...the plane will be available the entire rest of the day. yep, renting sure does stink sometimes.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Groundpounder tgis is fair feedback. I’m “slow” and cautious in everything and a little more nervous than the average 4-500 hr pilot every time I go up.

Now - I haven’t been up solo other than once in 10-years, but I was a nervous pilot back then too.

I’ll time it next time I rent and see how long it takes.
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Understood, that's ok as you're getting back into it, but once you have your "sea legs" back under you it shouldn't take very long to do the preflight.
 
My previous club had that rule... if the person on the schedule was a no show after 30min (1hr for reservations over 8 hours), you could take it. I did that once, but it was a cloudy day and I was pretty sure he wasn't going to show up.

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I guess I could get checked out in the new to them Arrow. That’s more open on their schedule but . . . At 47 having never put gear down in 27 years, I’m not sure I want that memory risk.
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I'd encourage you to do it. I was nervous about it too but it's really no big deal. An arrow is decent traveling plane.

@kaiser where do you rent from?
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
I guess I could get checked out in the new to them Arrow. That’s more open on their schedule but . . . At 47 having never put gear down in 27 years, I’m not sure I want that memory risk.
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Don’t think of it as a memory risk. It’s on the checklist, and you can double check that gear position a millions prior to landing if you want.
 
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