Lost Procedures

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
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David
So, I am doing my bi-annual CFI renewal but I have not taught for 5 years. Possibly will start flying again soon.

The topic of making sure the student understands lost procedures came up.

What are CFI's currently training students to do for these procedures? I did my PPL during the days of regional Flight Service Stations that could do a DF steer. But things have changed. Tuning in VOR's for triangulation comes to mind and the ol' GPS and/or contacting ATC. If there are any other ideas, please sound off.

Thanks,

David
 
Here we can always turn east to the ocean. Then turn left or right. We usually know if we’re north or south of Norfolk.

turn toward the largest metro area you know you couldn’t have passed. Roads, rails, power lines, & airplanes in flight converge on towns. Rivers run downhill.

water towers will give you a hint.

most of all, don’t flit. And don’t panic.

of course, most students are going to fire up ForeFlight.
 
flhrci said:
So, I am doing my bi-annual CFI renewal but I have not taught for 5 years. Possibly will start flying again soon.

The topic of making sure the student understands lost procedures came up.

What are CFI's currently training students to do for these procedures? I did my PPL during the days of regional Flight Service Stations that could do a DF steer. But things have changed. Tuning in VOR's for triangulation comes to mind and the ol' GPS and/or contacting ATC. If there are any other ideas, please sound off.

Thanks,

David
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Good ol' pilotage. Lookee there, a freeway, and there's a train track right next to it and gee, there's this river crossing it and there's that lake over there with what's that a dam at one end and look at that, it looks like one them thar wind farms and blah blah..... Now where's that Chart. Oh yeah, I threw it away last year. darn.
 
Clock - Note time
Climb - For better visibility and radio reception (weather and airspace permitting)
Conserve - Monitor fuel status, set power for economy cruise
Cross-check - Use VORs, landmarks, etc.
Communicate - Request assistance from ATC
 
I assume you are talking about not having GPS. The old climb, call ATC and confess and ask for help still works. For those who like mnemonics, it's "climb, confess, comply." If you're not sure of the frequency, check the AFD for an airport you think you are near for a frequency or use the universal FSS frequency.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I assume you are talking about not having GPS. The old climb, call ATC and confess and ask for help still works. For those who like mnemonics, it's "climb, confess, comply." If you're not sure of the frequency, check the AFD for an airport you think you are near for a frequency or use the universal FSS frequency.
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For those that don't know, and I'm not sure how common the knowledge of it is nowadays, it's 122.2. All FSS's guard that frequency.
 
Beings it’s the days of gps and cell phones, I do teach navigating in an airplane with a road map cell phone gps. It’s a short lesson, but worthwhile.
 
When all of the above doesn't work, go old school and use an old, old defunct procedure. Fly a triangle with 120 deg turns & one minute legs. Back when I was a military pilot, I was dispatched by Approach to intercept a NORDO aircraft on top. Did it. He joined up on me and we did an ILS together. Done deal. Alt inop.
That procedure had been dropped from AIM years prior. I was surprised that someone in ATC still remembered it. BTW, I knew that controller to be a retired USAF fighter pilot. Just saying. Try everything.
 
When I first started flying I was so concerned about getting lost and being known as “that guy” that I started matching individual towers with what was on my sectional. Then I ended up either directly over a landmark or crabbed in such a way I couldn’t see it. Eventually I realized I had been thinking small picture and started looking big picture. “Well, there’s that big lake off in the distance, there’s that power plant with the stacks… Even though things like that can be far away they can still get you oriented.
 
I teach a 6th “C”

Cash, since it’s proven you need an additional GOS receiver
 
A couple of the responses above assume, but done specifically state (so I’ll specifically state), start with a DR estimate of position.
 
Maxnr said:
When all of the above doesn't work, go old school and use an old, old defunct procedure. Fly a triangle with 120 deg turns & one minute legs. Back when I was a military pilot, I was dispatched by Approach to intercept a NORDO aircraft on top. Did it. He joined up on me and we did an ILS together. Done deal. Alt inop.
That procedure had been dropped from AIM years prior. I was surprised that someone in ATC still remembered it. BTW, I knew that controller to be a retired USAF fighter pilot. Just saying. Try everything.
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You didn’t happen to be flying a DeHavilland Mosquito, did you? :D
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-cbc-christmas-broadcast.135915/#post-3189670
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@Maxnr how does that help the lost pilot ID their location?
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Guess it doesn't. However, the controller at the scope nails it & vectors another aircraft to intercept. As did Blackie, the approach controller. Remember, No Alternator means no nav, com, turn coordinator, fuel gauges and engine instruments. And the mag compass is suspect. It's swung with all equipment on. Blackie gave me one corrective vector and contact. Solid under cast. It was a PA28 and I was current in the flying club's and knew what that pilot was working with.
 
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rhkennerly said:
Here we can always turn east to the ocean. Then turn left or right. We usually know if we’re north or south of Norfolk.

turn toward the largest metro area you know you couldn’t have passed. Roads, rails, power lines, & airplanes in flight converge on towns. Rivers run downhill.

water towers will give you a hint.

most of all, don’t flit. And don’t panic.

of course, most students are going to fire up ForeFlight.
Click to expand...
Ahh, that's where my wife is from - the Tidewater area (Hampton).

Lot's of good landmarks to choose from, tunnels, bridges, PHF, Langley, Ft. Eustis, NNSB&DD Co. And Busch Gardens, if you stray too far North!
 
https://youtu.be/_7DEHNLBY_Y
Dry Creek said:
Ahh, that's where my wife is from - the Tidewater area (Hampton).

Lot's of good landmarks to choose from, tunnels, bridges, PHF, Langley, Ft. Eustis, NNSB&DD Co. And Busch Gardens, if you stray too far North!
Click to expand...

Yeah, get lost here and you'll end up as the hood ornament on an FA-18. Nice area, though.
 
Here, I was taught climb and look around. If you can't spot your position with all the mountains and rivers around, you're in trouble. Hard to get lost here. Second option, radio. VOR coverage and reliability isn't enough to help in many spots if you're low.
 
DF steers and even the use of DF has been dead for decades. The last time I was in a real FSS (Leesburg AFSS before it closed) they used a sectional with a plastic overlay and talked the pilot through getting some radials. However, these days I've heard on 121.5 etc... with lost pilot the first thing they usually try is giving the guy a squawk code and seeing if they can find him on radar.
 
Circle- since you don't know where you are, no sense in continuing on your current heading since you may very well be flying away from your destination.
Climb- increases what you can see on the ground for pilotage, better communications and more likely to show up on radar.
Conserve- fuel could become an issue, reduce power and lean mixture to best economy.
Communicate- ATC can vector you if you can talk to them and they cans see you on radar (see climb)
Cross Check- Triangulate from two VORs and should have your exact location.
 
If you’re lost, chances are you weren’t lost 5 minutes ago. Reverse course and fly back a few minutes to pick up your last landmark, then reorient yourself.

Some training resources still advise looking for a name on a water tower. Around here, if you descend low enough to read a water tower you’ll probably hit a cell tower or broadcast tower first. And even if it works, you’ll like only learn that you’re over the metropolis of “Acme Fertilizer” or the township of “Go Wildcats.”
 
There was a time I felt lost because of a landmark. I was headed to Wichita and was going to use a windfarm as a landmark for something (distance marker, course change indicator, whatever). It was the first, and last, time I did that. Once I got there and realized that wind farm stretched for miles in all directions I decided that, yes I was there, bit I wasn’t really sure where “there” was.
 
Half Fast said:
If you’re lost, chances are you weren’t lost 5 minutes ago. Reverse course and fly back a few minutes to pick up your last landmark, then reorient yourself.

Some training resources still advise looking for a name on a water tower. Around here, if you descend low enough to read a water tower you’ll probably hit a cell tower or broadcast tower first. And even if it works, you’ll like only learn that you’re over the metropolis of “Acme Fertilizer” or the township of “Go Wildcats.”
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I had to read a water tower two different times on one of my solo cross countries as a student…all those lakes looked the same. On the way home I knew instantly where I was, because I happened to read the same water tower. :D
 
luvflyin said:
For those that don't know, and I'm not sure how common the knowledge of it is nowadays, it's 122.2. All FSS's guard that frequency.
Click to expand...

Not all of em. I have tried and tried with no answer.
 
I remember when the first 172s with an MFD came out. I think it was the NAV II package, with a KLN 94 and a King MFD (the 550?). Two guys were pre-flighting it. I walked up to them and said, "You know, if you get lost in this, the FAA takes your ticket on the spot!"
 
Back many years ago (1981), I remember the head of the flight school drill me on what to do if I get lost on solo XC's. Best bet that if you find an airport land there. Better to land under controlled circumstances than to run out of fuel searching.

Fortunately, it never happened to me even with a DR leg on the second leg of my XC. The VOR at my first stop was out and that would have been the thing I used to get to the second stop (nothing near where they were). I convinced my instructor that I could DR it and there was a river that crossed perpendicular to my course and the airport was on the river. It wouldn't be hard to fly up and down the river to find it if I was off. Turns out I hit it pretty much dead on.
 
What is this "lost" you say?

I was trained to cross all checkpoints plus or minus ten seconds. Everything in between is fair game.
 
flyingron said:
Fortunately, it never happened to me even with a DR leg on the second leg of my XC.
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I did get lost on my first leg. Too much fun just looking around and flying to keep good track. Somehow managed to find just the right powerline trail. If I had a student who pulled some of the solo cross country things I did, I'd probably kill them before they got their ticket!
 
In my case there were no real checkpoints once I cleared the departure airport vicinity until I hit the river that crossed my flight path near the destination.
 
Not to sound like an idiot.. but are we assuming a complete electrical failure too?

I don't know anyone flying without some kind of GPS, either in the plane or on a tablet

Not diminishing the value of climbing and confessing and all that.. but the use of a GPS shouldn't be villified

Having said that, I learned to fly before GPS was commonplace in planes, and an easy out was to fly east and hit the ocean then go north or south until you recognize something
 
Maxnr said:
Guess it doesn't. However, the controller at the scope nails it & vectors another aircraft to intercept. As did Blackie, the approach controller. Remember, No Alternator means no nav, com, turn coordinator, fuel gauges and engine instruments. And the mag compass is suspect. It's swung with all equipment on. Blackie gave me one corrective vector and contact. Solid under cast. It was a PA28 and I was current in the flying club's and knew what that pilot was working with.
Click to expand...

So you flew the ILS and he followed you using visual contact?
 
Tantalum said:
No
Having said that, I learned to fly before GPS was commonplace in planes, and an easy out was to fly east and hit the ocean then go north or south until you recognize something
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Commonplace? It was two years after I learned to fly that President Reagan agreed to let civilians use what had been up to then a military-only project. The first aviation units came out about 1992, I got to play with a couple (A trimble something or other and a Garmin 100) when flying up to Oshkosh and back with Paul Bertorelli.

I bought my first GPS in 1994. I had borrowed an Apollo handheld from one of my wife's instructors other students. Gary, I said, Buzz won't let you use that thing while you're a student, so let me borrow it when I fly to Oshkosh.

Margy's instructor had a no-GPS policy for primary students. Amusingly, the plane Margy was using had an old clunk Rho-Theta RNAV in it. I had taught Margy how to enter the coordinates from the old Brown Airguide books into the thing and use it to find the airport. When Buzz caught her doing that he made a general "No RNAV rule."
 
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