Scuba diving decompression sickness 11 year ago

kell490 said:
Does that mean the FAA will want testing done yearly for conditions I have no symptoms for like the Pulmonary function test, fluoroscopy x-ray for the diaphragm paralyses, and MRI and neurologist report for the bend 12 years ago?

Can't the AME just do a standard physical exam verify if there is any nerve damage ? I had planned on providing the sniff test for the diaphragm leave out the PFT it was from 2018 longer then 3 years. Still trying to get the insurance claims but not as easy as I thought old policy over 10 years ago UHC said might not be possible to get the records. The neurologist I saw in 2012 is no longer at the same location I don't remember her name the imaging place is also gone I suspect bought up by one of the larger companies in the area.
Click to expand...

No, updated means you have to present current testing and evaluation. Even though the event occurred years ago, the FAA always wants current evaluations, a report from years ago is not sufficient. If memory serves me correctly, current means less than 60 days old, but ask your AME, not my memory.

It's unlikely to be recurring testing. This isn't a degenerative thing, after you have the updated report, they'll be satisfied.

This is the FAA medical system - if you might have a condition, you have to show you don't. There can be significant negative outcomes from the bends and they don't know where you land, so you have to show them.
 
bflynn said:
No, updated means you have to present current testing and evaluation. Even though the event occurred years ago, the FAA always wants current evaluations, a report from years ago is not sufficient. If memory serves me correctly, current means less than 60 days old, but ask your AME, not my memory.

It's unlikely to be recurring testing. This isn't a degenerative thing, after you have the updated report, they'll be satisfied.

This is the FAA medical system - if you might have a condition, you have to show you don't. There can be significant negative outcomes from the bends and they don't know where you land, so you have to show them.
Click to expand...

I found an AME I will get a consult as you said not a degenerative thing so why would not an MRI report from 2012 be good enough?
 
kell490 said:
why would not an MRI report from 2012 be good enough?
Click to expand...

Bureaucracy? The rules say it has to be a current evaluation. Remember you're working with the government here and the FAA's unofficial motto is sometimes "We're not happy until you're not happy."
 
kell490 said:
I found an AME I will get a consult as you said not a degenerative thing so why would not an MRI report from 2012 be good enough?
Click to expand...
An MRI report from 2012 would be sufficient if you were applying for the medical in 2012. Between 2012 and now your situation may have changed, so the standard of care would be for you to be evaluated on recent tests. Remember, they're looking at "the whole" you, not just one part of you at one time in the past.
 
Brad Z said:
An MRI report from 2012 would be sufficient if you were applying for the medical in 2012. Between 2012 and now your situation may have changed, so the standard of care would be for you to be evaluated on recent tests. Remember, they're looking at "the whole" you, not just one part of you at one time in the past.
Click to expand...

I bumped my head while riding a skateboard 40 years ago had a concussion you think they want an MRI for that also 40 years later? I don't even know the hospital I went to, or the doctors name. Parents are both passed on what records can I get for that?
 
If you report that to them, they will want a MRI, yes.

I know you were being sarcastic with us, but don't be sarcastic with the FAA, they are not permitted to have an official sense of humor.
 
bflynn said:
If you report that to them, they will want a MRI, yes.

I know you were being sarcastic with us, but don't be sarcastic with the FAA, they are not permitted to have an official sense of humor.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

And you never know who might be lurking anonymously on this site. Plus, you know who Brad Z is, right? A few posts back? And you know we have AMEs on this site, right?
 
kell490 said:
I bumped my head while riding a skateboard 40 years ago had a concussion you think they want an MRI for that also 40 years later? I don't even know the hospital I went to, or the doctors name. Parents are both passed on what records can I get for that?
Click to expand...
I think you should stop arguing here about hypotheticals and talk to your AME about reality.
 
No it’s the attitude, “but I’m fine!”. See post of yours at 9:56 AM. You have a condition which more frequently than not results in subtle long term damage.

Current neurologist and his evaluation to include MRI.

Or can post again after you get the “demand” letter and are struggling to meet the time limitation for stuff that is basic occupational medicine.

Or, you could lie and omit it from 18....hospitalization, but then I can’t help you.
 
bbchien said:
No it’s the attitude, “but I’m fine!”. See post of yours at 9:56 AM. You have a condition which more frequently than not results in subtle long term damage.

Current neurologist and his evaluation to include MRI.

Or can post again after you get the “demand” letter and are struggling to meet the time limitation for stuff that is basic occupational medicine.
Click to expand...

Can you provide some studies on long term subtle damage for mild DCS? I would like to learn more about it?
 
Not from the house. I will say anecdotally that there was a sot of noncompliant fellow in my Tweety class. He thought he heard a lawnmower at 30,000 feet, had a seizure and NEVER flew again.....
 
bbchien said:
Not from the house. I will say anecdotally that there was a sot of noncompliant fellow in my Tweety class. He thought he heard a lawnmower at 30,000 feet, had a seizure and NEVER flew again.....
Click to expand...

So your conclusions are based on this one person? If you find a study let me know like to see it.
 
kell490 said:
So your conclusions are based on this one person? If you find a study let me know like to see it.
Click to expand...
DAN/UNC would be the place to find experts on this. But that won't help you get a medical certificate, if that's what you want.
 
kell490 said:
So your conclusions are based on this one person? If you find a study let me know like to see it.
Click to expand...

you came for advice. You got it, from the best source you could have asked for.

I think this thread is done. Best of luck.
 
kell490 said:
So your conclusions are based on this one person? If you find a study let me know like to see it.
Click to expand...
i would suggest you look up the qualifications of who you are arguing with before questioning his medical ideas.............................
 
Well, I'm not going to offer assitance. Assitance requires acceptance of the FAA's position. They don't have to do a THING whcih means no certificate. And if you lie, that's a calll 4 felony.

google 27 pilots indicted
google 4 delta captains indicted

and see how that's working out for them.....i offered EXACTLY accurate advise.
 
bbchien said:
Well, I'm not going to offer assitance. Assitance requires acceptance of the FAA's position. They don't have to do a THING whcih means no certificate. And if you lie, that's a calll 4 felony.

google 27 pilots indicted
google 4 delta captains indicted

and see how that's working out for them.....i offered EXACTLY accurate advise.
Click to expand...

Never said any of that about a felony I plan on getting a consult and work with someone locally thanks.
 
GOOD!
NB, however, if he sez, "let's apply and see what they say".....WRONG GUY. You can Never get the sort of information they need in the 60 day winow that they give you....and then you get denied, and then there's no LSA operation until you get it right.
 
Last edited:
I found some notes from 11 years ago here is the actual dive profile from the computer I had 2 of these computers that day they were cheap air computers no way to download and graph the dive. One computer hanging on a console one was wrist type both the same model one was 5 years older. I had bought one for my wife and myself she quit diving so I wanted to compare them. The console one hanging lower from my notes It had a warning one star into decompression.

1st dive 93' 24 Minutes Bottom Time
Ascent Rate was 51-60 FPM

Surface Interval 49min

2nd dive 101' 25 minutes Bottom time
ascent rate was 51-60 FPM
 
kell490 said:
I found some notes from 11 years ago here is the actual dive profile from the computer I had 2 of these computers that day they were cheap air computers no way to download and graph the dive. One computer hanging on a console one was wrist type both the same model one was 5 years older. I had bought one for my wife and myself she quit diving so I wanted to compare them. The console one hanging lower from my notes It had a warning one star into decompression.

1st dive 93' 24 Minutes Bottom Time
Ascent Rate was 51-60 FPM

Surface Interval 49min

2nd dive 101' 25 minutes Bottom time
ascent rate was 51-60 FPM
Click to expand...

Just for fun, I ran this profile through the V-planner software (https://www.hhssoftware.com/v-planner/index.php) that is heavily favored by technical divers for deep, mixed gas dives, but it also works great for recreational dives on air. I used the VPM-B algorithm, which wouldn't have been available on air computers 11 years ago.

Even with conservatism set to 0 (recommended only for super fit divers with no history of DCS after aggressive dives) it recommended decompression after both dives. Specifically, after dive 1 it recommends 4 minutes at 10 feet, and after dive 2 it recommends 2 minutes at 40 feet, 3 minutes at 30 feet, 5 minutes at 20 feet, and 11 minutes at 10 feet. The software allows conservatism settings up to +5, but changing the value to +2 (what I used for deep dives) added 5 more minutes of deco to both dives.

A longer surface interval would have helped reduce the deco time on dive 2. Most dive operators want to see at least an hour of surface interval, even when the second dive is shallower. Modern deco theory (which probably wasn't much considered by recreational dive operators 11 years ago) also recommends slowing the descent rate as you get shallower. 60 fpm is fine while still deep, where the rate of pressure change is slower, but drop to 30 fpm once above 50 feet or so on a dive like this. I did use 60 fpm all the way to the surface for this calculation.

If you were doing these dives using the 80 cubic foot aluminum tanks that virtually all dive operators provide, you couldn't have had much air left upon surfacing, that's another reason I think the dive operator was running a poor dive profile for the group.
 
Last edited:
GaryM said:
Just for fun, I ran this profile through the V-planner software (https://www.hhssoftware.com/v-planner/index.php) that is heavily favored by technical divers for deep, mixed gas dives, but it also works great for recreational dives on air. I used the VPM-B algorithm, which wouldn't have been available on air computers 11 years ago.

Even with conservatism set to 0 (recommended only for super fit divers with no history of DCS after aggressive dives) it recommended decompression after both dives. Specifically, after dive 1 it recommends 4 minutes at 10 feet, and after dive 2 it recommends 2 minutes at 40 feet, 3 minutes at 30 feet, 5 minutes at 20 feet, and 11 minutes at 10 feet. The software allows conservatism settings up to +5, but changing the value to +2 (what I used for deep dives) added 5 more minutes of deco to both dives.

A longer surface interval would have helped reduce the deco time on dive 2. Most dive operators want to see at least an hour of surface interval, even when the second dive is shallower. Modern deco theory (which probably wasn't much discussed 11 years ago) also recommends slowing the descent rate as you get shallower. 60 fpm is fine while still deep, where the rate of pressure change is slower, but drop to 30 fpm once above 50 feet or so on a dive like this. I did use 60 fpm all the way to the surface for this calculation.

If you were doing these dives using the 80 cubic foot aluminum tanks that virtually all dive operators provide, you couldn't have had much air left upon surfacing, that's another reason I think the dive operator was running a poor dive profile for the group.
Click to expand...

Also take into account those numbers I gave you are max depth numbers didn't stay at that depth the entire time. Never did I see the computer say I was in deco it always had time left before deco. The minimum I remember seeing and reviewing the video I have is about 13 minutes at depth as got up higher it would go up in time. The other computer was hanging down on a console it later showed I was in the caution for deco. My air wasn't bad ending the dive around 900 lbs I've never had problem with air under the water I felt relaxed when diving.

I discussed it with some folks over at duke university dive medicine group back then he felt I was asymptomatic bent when the cabin pressure came up to 8000 or whatever pressure they used I became symptomatic. I also found out that my computer was using liberal algorithm. I made lot of mistakes one allowing a DM to figure out my dive plan, and not confirming it. Then following the group I was the last one to ascend being a new diver with a group of guys who do this all the time assumed they knew more then I did. Also using a cheap dive computer never go cheap on a dive computer I bought these used off ebay . I once also dived without a computer only a depth gauge but it was a shore dive short dumb as well that time I only went to about 55 feet.

I dived again in 2012 the following year after the bend in Cozumel maybe I felt some tingling in my left arm maybe it was just in my mind playing tricks on me because I was worried about it. I always feel little weird after diving inner ear get worked over, and salt water taste in the mouth. I decided if I was going to continue to dive I would get nitrox certified since my wife quit diving I haven't done it again since 2012 not sure I will do it again probably not. If we moved to Florida lived near warm water I would probably do it more.
 
Cozumel is a great place and also easy to go into deco in the second dive. I've seen a 100 times. First dive farther south, a bunch of divers go down to 110 or 120. Surface interval is often the boat ride back towards town. Someone requests a second dive on the wall where its easy to hit 80ft. Combined with a short surface interval and dive computers are beeping everywhere about 20min into the second dive. The most entertaining is when the DM goes into deco on that dive. He bumps up to 30ft or so. Half the group comes up with a mix between passed and concerned. The other half oblivious to deco obligation putz along the bottom and go into deco. Then on the dive boat they pull their batteries to reset the no dive warnings.

But I still love Coz :)

Diving EAN in Cozumel is also interesting. Its easy for a first dive to exceed MOD even on EAN32. I woyld usually dive EAN32 first and EAN36 second. But thats a pita so now if I dive nitrox I just do both EAN32.

...but there is always that looming down current. I had one friend hit about 240ft before he got out of it. He was on air. I always wondered if that short pull down to 240ft on nitrox would be instant oxygen toxicity and problems? So diving nitrox in Cozumel should be given more thought than just implying its always safer.
 
kell490 said:
Also take into account those numbers I gave you are max depth numbers didn't stay at that depth the entire time.

I discussed it with some folks over at duke university dive medicine group back then he felt I was asymptomatic bent when the cabin pressure came up to 8000 or whatever pressure they used I became symptomatic. I also found out that my computer was using liberal algorithm. I made lot of mistakes one allowing a DM to figure out my dive plan, and not confirming it. Then following the group I was the last one to ascend being a new diver with a group of guys who do this all the time assumed they knew more then I did. Also using a cheap dive computer never go cheap on a dive computer I bought these used off ebay . I once also dived without a computer only a depth gauge but it was a shore dive short dumb as well that time I only went to about 55 feet.

I dived again in 2012 the following year after the bend in Cozumel maybe I felt some tingling in my left arm maybe it was just in my mind playing tricks on me because I was worried about it. I always feel little weird after diving inner ear get worked over, and salt water taste in the mouth. I decided if I was going to continue to dive I would get nitrox certified since my wife quit diving I haven't done it again since 2012 not sure I will do it again probably not. If we moved to Florida lived near warm water I would probably do it more.
Click to expand...

Multi-level diving would certainly would have increased your safety margin relative to the square profile I calculated. That's why computers tend to give longer bottom time, and/or less decompression time, for any given dive--you get credit for the time spend above max depth. Deco algorithms have tended to get more conservative over the years, so the problem may not have been that your computer was 'cheap' so much as it was more aggressive than you'd find now. That's a bad combination with flying too soon after diving. If you do get back into diving, diving on nitrox would improve your safety margin (as would just deciding to stay further away from the no decompression limit on any given dive). Many people who want to be more careful with their deco planning will dive a nitrox mix appropriate for their planned depth, but use an air computer or air dive tables. That bakes extra conservatism into every dive, without having to think about it while you're in the water.

I well understand your 'mind tricks' comment. I finally got in the habit of doing a careful mental inventory of how I felt after gearing up but before entering the water, making note of any muscles that may have been overextended, any joints that didn't feel right, etc. Making the long boat ride back to shore, or the long drive home afterwards while trying to remember whether or not you had that pain in your knee (or wherever) before the dive can really mess with your head.
 
I did two drift dives in Cozumel both were 65 feet max drift diving the first time was fun. The first one current was about 5 mph 2nd one we did was lot faster if you grabbed onto something or ducked under a rock partner would be 50 feet away in a few seconds. Also the loud boats circling over head was annoying I could see why never caught a fish in a lake with bunch of boats running around.
 
kell490 said:
I did two drift dives in Cozumel...
Click to expand...
Hands down my wife and my favorite dive of all time was a Cozumel drift dive. We agreed it must be the wet version of hot air ballooning over the countryside. I had my neutral buoyancy nailed. Slightly shallower breathing would allow me to descend as the seabed dropped off. Slightly deeper breathing to reverse. It was unbelievable to cover so much ground w/o exerting energy.
 
All this scuba talk has me wondering...maybe a separate thread on a POA scuba trip?
 
Sinistar said:
All this scuba talk has me wondering...maybe a separate thread on a POA scuba trip?
Click to expand...
Alrighty. My wife and now are officially empty nesters and have travel flexibility. Clark Howard says the most economical time to travel to Cozumel is the 1st two weeks of December. The last time my wife and I went to Cozumel was ~9 months before our youngest son that we just dropped off at college was born, so, it's been a while. Cozumel is very different now. Back then, we stayed at what is now called The Cozumel Palace (I'm pretty sure it was El Presidente back in the day). I think it's now all inclusive. What we liked was it was close to the boat launch spots, we could easily make our own breakfast and lunch, and eating dinner in a nice restaurant in town was a short walk. So, looking for advice from anyone who's been to Cozumel more recently :)
 
Mahneuvers said:
Alrighty. My wife and now are officially empty nesters and have travel flexibility. Clark Howard says the most economical time to travel to Cozumel is the 1st two weeks of December. The last time my wife and I went to Cozumel was ~9 months before our youngest son that we just dropped off at college was born, so, it's been a while. Cozumel is very different now. Back then, we stayed at what is now called The Cozumel Palace (I'm pretty sure it was El Presidente back in the day). I think it's now all inclusive. What we liked was it was close to the boat launch spots, we could easily make our own breakfast and lunch, and eating dinner in a nice restaurant in town was a short walk. So, looking for advice from anyone who's been to Cozumel more recently :)
Click to expand...
What are you looking for?
 
Lindberg said:
What are you looking for?
Click to expand...
I'm looking to hear from people who have had recent great diving experiences at Cozumel. Our 20 year old experience was pretty awesome making 2-tank dive trips/day. But, for example, all inclusive was pretty rare 20 years ago. So, for those who have made the trip more recently, is all inclusive the way to go, or are there better options? I'm not trying to make this trip as cheap as possible. We plan on making a similar trip every year we're physically able to do so. I'm looking for practical experience from folks who are making similar frequent trips.

For example, 20 years ago, we spoke to some divers staying at the Barracuda Hotel. It's not far from the Cozumel Palace, but, was more economical, catered to divers, was closer to transportation and downtown Cozumel, and would have been the place I investigated for my next trip. But it's been 20 years.....
 
You might try visiting a scuba forum. (And ask ‘em what plane you should buy. ;) )

Sorry, can’t help. I haven’t been out of the country to go diving in three decades. But I used to love Bonaire.
 
Lindberg said:
What are you looking for?
Click to expand...
We like diving but I would not say we're diving enthusiasts. We've dived in Florida, Honduras, Mexico, the Cayman's and Hawaii. Cozumel seems to hit the sweet spot of economics, water visibility, coral life, sea life, drift dives...
 
Mahneuvers said:
I'm looking to hear from people who have had recent great diving experiences at Cozumel. Our 20 year old experience was pretty awesome making 2-tank dive trips/day. But, for example, all inclusive was pretty rare 20 years ago. So, for those who have made the trip more recently, is all inclusive the way to go, or are there better options? I'm not trying to make this trip as cheap as possible. We plan on making a similar trip every year we're physically able to do so. I'm looking for practical experience from folks who are making similar frequent trips.

For example, 20 years ago, we spoke to some divers staying at the Barracuda Hotel. It's not far from the Cozumel Palace, but, was more economical, catered to divers, was closer to transportation and downtown Cozumel, and would have been the place I investigated for my next trip. But it's been 20 years.....
Click to expand...
There are lots of all inclusives now. But I wouldn't do it. We stay at Blue Angel and dive with the onsite dive op. It's just south of downtown and caters to divers. The hotel is no frills, but the diving is great. The on site restaurant is also good for breakfast before diving and lunch after, and it's a short walk or cab ride to ask the great restaurants downtown.

Scubaboard.com has a Cozumel forum, and there you'll find more information than you want.
 
Half Fast said:
You might try visiting a scuba forum...
Click to expand...
Sure. I'll get there. Lazy me, I don't want to join a forum for each of my interests :) I used to use FB for that purpose until _that_ event...
 
Lindberg said:
There are lots of all inclusives now. But I wouldn't do it. We stay at Blue Angel and dive with the onsite dive op. It's just south of downtown and caters to divers. The hotel is no frills, but the diving is great. The on site restaurant is also good for breakfast before diving and lunch after, and it's a short walk or cab ride to ask the great restaurants downtown...
Click to expand...
You rock! This is exactly the perspective I was after.
 
We stayed at Villa Aldora in January. North of the airport close to the marina. They've got something like 10 suites, most (all?) have kitchens. They're partnered with a dive op in town and the boats pick up and drop off at the villa dock. The house reef (EAN onsite) is not nearly as interesting as the boat dives but we really enjoyed it, especially at night. The dive op also uses steel 120's which I *loved*.

It's in a more residential area, It's a ~1mile walk into town but not bad and there are several decent restaurants on the way into town. We were there to dive and loved Aldora. If we had come to party we probably would have felt different.

ETA: We went to Bonaire in May, and while the diving was mostly better in Bonaire (and the independence was fantastic), we preferred the overall experience of Coz.

Nauga,
the air hog
 
nauga said:
Nauga,
the air hog
Click to expand...
In Cozumel, unlike now, I was in pretty good shape. The dive master told me he had never seen anything like it. He said I had I must have gills considering how much O2 I returned w/. It was great. They let me be the first one in the water w/ each dive and the last one out. I got a lot more diving in than everyone else on the boat :)
 
nauga said:
ETA: We went to Bonaire in May, and while the diving was mostly better in Bonaire (and the independence was fantastic), we preferred the overall experience of Coz.
Click to expand...


What I really loved about Bonaire was that the top of the reef was shallow, maybe 30’, but it bottomed out in sand at around 130’. We could do fantastic multi-level dives, starting the dive at 100’ or 110’, then gradually working our way upward, finally using up the tank in the shallows. It was easy to do an hour dive and see amazing variety in fish and corals throughout the depth range.

Also the shore diving was every bit as good as the boat diving. 1000 Steps was one of my favorites.
 
Back
Top