DarkAero comes together

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MountainDude

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MountainDude
They put the whole plane together for the first time.

Looks very cool, but not having a BRS is a fatal design flaw, IMO.
Both the Shark and Blackwing have BRS.

Good luck to them.
 
I just looked through their website. I couldn't find a spec sheet with a half dozen critical performance parameters (stall speed, ceiling, takeoff distance, landing distance, cruise speed @ % power, etc.) and a kit price (or projection).

To me, those items are foundational.
 
kyleb said:
I just looked through their website. I couldn't find a spec sheet with a half dozen critical performance parameters (stall speed, ceiling, takeoff distance, landing distance, cruise speed @ % power, etc.) and a kit price (or projection).

To me, those items are foundational.
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Why would you believe any of those numbers until the plane has flown?
 
aftCG said:
Why would you believe any of those numbers until the plane has flown?
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Didn't say I'd believe 'em. But I would like to understand their expectations. That provides a basis to understand if they are hitting their goals.
 
It seems to me they're gambling the success of the whole project on their paper design; if it doesn't meet their design goals or has some dangerous flight characteristics, tweaking things will be extremely difficult since they went straight from paper to production molds. I'm really rooting for them, but it's a huge gamble IMHO.
 
The brothers have more of a chance than Raptor Guy. All have an actual engineering background.

Specs:
200hp UL 520is (200hp@ 3300rpm 185hp@2800rpm)
275 mph cruise
70mph stall
2500fpm climb
1700sm range at 275mph cruise
23.5ft wingspan
750 empty weight
750 useful load
77 gallons fuel
43" wide cabin
Normal category

So it's a go fast 2 seater without aerobatics and minimal if any baggage area. That wing has me wondering on glide. Curious to see how close they come the the empty weight. The engine alone is 240 pounds.

My biggest concern is market and what it's supposed to do. Besides go fast. Can't really use it for cross country. Is their even room for a flight bag?
 
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kyleb said:
Didn't say I'd believe 'em. But I would like to understand their expectations. That provides a basis to understand if they are hitting their goals.
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Maybe they've just got a better understanding of the limitations and weaknesses of the analytical methods they're using than most popup designs these days seem to have. Bad "data" is not necessarily better than no data.

Nauga,
and powerpoint engineering
 
nauga said:
Maybe they've just got a better understanding of the limitations and weaknesses of the analytical methods they're using than most popup designs these days seem to have. Bad "data" is not necessarily better than no data.

Nauga,
and powerpoint engineering
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Garbage in. Garbage out. All three are smart enough to know what they're doing. They've got 3 engineers working on the project, which is 3 more than some first builds. Mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, and aerospace engineer. Sounds like a successful combination. I really hope they are.
 
nauga said:
Maybe they've just got a better understanding of the limitations and weaknesses of the analytical methods they're using than most popup designs these days seem to have. Bad "data" is not necessarily better than no data.

Nauga,
and powerpoint engineering
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Certainly, you can't disappoint people if you don't put all of your expectations out there. The Dark Aero (IMO) looks to similar to the Lancair 320/360 but with a different engine of slightly higher horsepower. I would expect slightly better top end performance given the addition hp and seemingly slightly smaller airframe.
 
Racerx said:
They've got 3 engineers working on the project, which is 3 more than some first builds.
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And fewer than some unsuccessful designs.

Nauga,
the pragmatist
 
Racerx said:
My biggest concern is market and what it's supposed to do. Besides go fast. Can't really use it for cross country. Is their even room for a flight bag?
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The lack of luggage space is my biggest concern too. My wife and I pack fairly light, but I think we’d exceed the tiny space in the Dark Aero. Otherwise I like the plane and have enjoyed following their work.

I think retractable gear will get some other people as well.
 
wayne said:
The lack of luggage space is my biggest concern too. My wife and I pack fairly light, but I think we’d exceed the tiny space in the Dark Aero. Otherwise I like the plane and have enjoyed following their work.

I think retractable gear will get some other people as well.
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Designing/attaching/fairing a fixed gear setup shouldn't be hard for them.

They can do like Glasair did back in the day. Offer the retract for show, but sell the fixed trigear to <seemingly> most clients. Venture did the same thing although they didn't sell a lot of the fixed gear models.
 
There are two baggage areas as shown in this video. Sixty pounds up front and another sixty pounds in the back. No room for suitcases, but good size soft duffels and some smaller stuff behind the seats plus smaller stuff in front of the hinging canopy/instrument panel.

Forward Baggage Area 60 pounds.jpg Rear Baggage Area 60 pounds.jpg
 
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Stan Cooper said:
There are two baggage areas as shown in this video. Sixty pounds up front and another sixty pounds in the back. No room for suitcases, but good size soft duffels and some smaller stuff behind the seats plus smaller stuff in front of the hinging canopy/instrument panel.

View attachment 103309 View attachment 103310
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Baggage weight is one thing. Volume another. Looks like theres enough room for my lunch.
 
It has been fun to watch so far.
I’m really interested to see how it progresses.
I agree, it looks a lot like a Lancair 320.
 
I wonder what the repair process would be in the future? Say you had a bird strike on the wing, etc. Can the CF be repaired, or would you need an entire new wing? How does CF handle 10 years of UV light? Crack, brittle, etc. with age?
 
WDD said:
I wonder what the repair process would be in the future? Say you had a bird strike on the wing, etc. Can the CF be repaired, or would you need an entire new wing? How does CF handle 10 years of UV light? Crack, brittle, etc. with age?
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CF is no different than other composites in those regards. You paint it to prevent UV damage, and the experts can give you a repair procedure for almost anything. I'm frequently in a composite repair shop where they have repaired some doozeys on Cirri, Icons, etc. I've seen crushed leading edges from various vehicles hitting the airplanes, I've seen the result of airplanes falling off of jacks and punching holes in the wing, heat damage, airplanes crunched into docks, you name it. The manufacturer develops a repair procedure and sends that procedure to the shop to execute. The airplanes come out looking and flying like new.

The challenge will be that Cirrus (for example) has a lot of aircraft in the field and probably has folks on staff who are extremely experienced and competent at designing composite repairs. With fewer resources, Dark Aero might be stretched to provide similar support.
 
I don’t know why, but every time I read this read title I add the word “from” in my mind.

I hope that’s just a result of too much time on POA.:rolleyes:
 
kyleb said:
The challenge will be that Cirrus (for example) has a lot of aircraft in the field and probably has folks on staff who are extremely experienced and competent at designing composite repairs. With fewer resources, Dark Aero might be stretched to provide similar support.
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Considering that this will be an E/AB, it will be up to the builder to make repairs.

I do think that repairing something like a leading edge could be a bit more challenging with this wing than a foam core wing like a Velocity.
 
MountainDude said:
They put the whole plane together for the first time.

Good luck to them.
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Those 3 seem to be sound engineers, but I don't think there is a market for the aircraft. It seems the 2 seat composite experimental market is a dead horse. See Glasair, Lancair, etc.

Quicker to build a 2 seat RV and not as messy ?
 
Datadriver said:
Those 3 seem to be sound engineers, but I don't think there is a market for the aircraft. It seems the 2 seat composite experimental market is a dead horse. See Glasair, Lancair, etc.

Quicker to build a 2 seat RV and not as messy ?
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I agree.
I do really wish them the best, and I sure would love to fly a Dark Aero.
But I think the incremental insurance cost vs my RV-9A would probably be prohibitive.
If it gets anywhere near the numbers they're projecting, I wonder if it will have a future in Reno, like the Lancair Legacy?
 
Datadriver said:
Those 3 seem to be sound engineers, but I don't think there is a market for the aircraft. It seems the 2 seat composite experimental market is a dead horse. See Glasair, Lancair, etc.

Quicker to build a 2 seat RV and not as messy ?
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What would make it messy? They would be selling you the carbon fiber shell already completed. So I'd have to guess that the build would actually be quicker.
 
Racerx said:
What would make it messy? They would be selling you the carbon fiber shell already completed. So I'd have to guess that the build would actually be quicker.
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I haven't seen what their idea is with what the kit would look like, but that is my impression as well. Structural adhesive and some CF reinforcing layups. If so, it would be a heck of a lot easier than a Velocity.
 
donjohnston said:
I suggest you watch the video.

There's a lot more volume than a lunch. Unless you mean lunch for 20 people.
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Certainly looks bigger in the video. Still looks like it would be tight for two carry-on bags, but definitely looks bigger than in the picture. Luggage weight shouldn't be a problem.
 
Datadriver said:
So far, 3 guys have been building one airplane pretty much fulltime for several years. I don't see any quick assembly here.
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I have to admit the progress has been slow. On the other hand how long did it take Van to make his first airplane, which was based on the Stit's Playboy? How long did it take the Klapameirs? Established players can certainly work quickly, but twenty something year old first timers?
 
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Datadriver said:
So far, 3 guys have been building one airplane pretty much fulltime for several years. I don't see any quick assembly here.
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let’s not forget that this is an airplane being built basically from a concept. R&D takes time to do it right. Future kit builders will reap the benefits of these guys taking the time to develop a product and process that will take a fraction of the time to build vs the prototype.
 
Datadriver said:
So far, 3 guys have been building one airplane pretty much fulltime for several years. I don't see any quick assembly here.
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There just might be a difference between developing an aircraft from scratch, designing and building the moulds etc, and putting together a kit with major parts provided and a complete set of detailed instructions...
 
Racerx said:
[...] My biggest concern is market and what it's supposed to do. Besides go fast. Can't really use it for cross country. Is their even room for a flight bag?
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That's a killer for us as well. This being said, I doubt that this is a problem for most others. Just look at the RV crowd: They put in the biggest engines, airliner panels, yet the VAST majority rarely uses them for more than the occasional burger run or trip to OSH.

Also, while the baggage space indeed appears to be not great and inconveniently shaped, it seems big enough to pack stuff for two for a long weekend in duffel bags.


Datadriver said:
So far, 3 guys have been building one airplane pretty much fulltime for several years. I don't see any quick assembly here.
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...and engineered and manufactured the aircraft, tooling, machinery, assembly instructions, etc.!

Looking at how thorough they are with the development of the kit (vs. just focusing on quickly slapping together a first prototype), I can certainly see that it might become the new benchmark when it comes to kit quality.

They also spent time and money to simulate the flying characteristics of the aircraft. My guess is that there will be no major surprises when they fly the thing for the first time.
 
Here is a video in which they discuss the wind tunnel testing and the simulations that went into the development of the aircraft:

 
painless said:
let’s not forget that this is an airplane being built basically from a concept. R&D takes time to do it right. Future kit builders will reap the benefits of these guys taking the time to develop a product and process that will take a fraction of the time to build vs the prototype.
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^ This

I can tell you takes much longer to build the first item from plans than the 4th, even more time when designing and building the first ever. I could easily see that in my woodworking, which is much simpler than what they are doing. Even with detailed plans the first one took noticeably longer than additional pieces.

When I made a new design and built the first piece it was even slower. I didn't have a nice 3-D CAD system like they do.
 
I'm not in the market for something like that, but I wish them well. I'll wait for the version with the wider cockpit, fixed gear, four seats, 6 month build time, 150 kts, and 3 hour range. :) (A carbon fiber RV 10??)
 
Here is a video in which they discuss the wind tunnel testing and the simulations that went into the development of the aircraft:
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To paraphrase Otto Lilienthal:

"To simulate an airplane is nothing. To build one is something. To fly is everything."

Ron Wanttaja
 
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