Who is PIC once the sun sets?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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You are a pilot riding as a passenger with another pilot. You are night current. They are not.
The sun sets. Did you just become PIC?
 
Question is: Did you know that the other pilot was not night current when you joined him/her for the flight and let it continue into evening twilight?

I would say the other person remains PIC. But if the other pilot tells you that they are not night current and would like to transfer controls to you, then you become PIC.

What kind of pilot friends do you have anyway that take you into evening flying conditions without being current? :p
 
I believe that since the left seater is not night current, and therefore not allowed to carry passengers, you must exit the aircraft at the stroke of the end of civil twilight. If you’re above the Arctic Circle it gets a little complicated, depending on the time of year.
 
rtk11 said:
Question is: Did you know that the other pilot was not night current when you joined him/her for the flight and let it continue into evening twilight?

I would say the other person remains PIC. But if the other pilot tells you that they are not night current and would like to transfer controls to you, then you become PIC.

What kind of pilot friends do you have anyway that take you into evening flying conditions without being current? :p
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We didn't get into that level of specifics.
Hypothetical. I was having a discussion about currency and I was arguing that after sun sets, the night current passenger would become PIC at that point.
 
Lachlan said:
I believe that since the left seater is not night current, and therefore not allowed to carry passengers, you must exit the aircraft at the stroke of the end of civil twilight. If you’re above the Arctic Circle it gets a little complicated, depending on the time of year.
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Well, there's the right answer. I may steal this... Freakin hilarious.
 
The FAAs definition of night has nothing to do with sun set. You still have another hour to worry about it.
 
How odd, I just ran into a similar situation, So I asked CFI Amir for clarification. According to him, 14cfr 61.57 only applies if you are carrying "passengers" and not "pilots". A non current pilot can fly all night solo even if they have never done a night landing in all their life. Two non current pilots can do the same thing. The way I understand it, your pilot certificate pulls you out of the "passenger" category.
 
depends if the moon is out or not...:rolleyes: I don't fly nights here in SE AK. The weather and terrane are not forgiving
 
Jay Urish said:
According to him, 14cfr 61.57 only applies if you are carrying "passengers" and not "pilots". A non current pilot can fly all night solo even if they have never done a night landing in all their life. Two non current pilots can do the same thing.
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So as long as the left seater isn't a CFI carrying a passenger, it's all good.
 
AKBill said:
depends if the moon is out or not...:rolleyes: I don't fly nights here in SE AK. The weather and terrane are not forgiving
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You are missing out on a lot of fun.!!

And yes, SE is not like flying the north slope at night....
 
Zeldman said:
You are missing out on a lot of fun.!!

And yes, SE is not like flying the north slope at night....
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I wonder what flying at night would be like with vision in only one eye. Heck I'm just getting back in the air on a good VFR day.
 
Just because the pilot who was flying isn't legal doesn't necessarily transfer obligation of PIC role to the other pilot. Any time you have more than one pilot in a plane, however, it behooves you to work out your relative roles.

The FAA will go after whoever can be harmed the most by an enforcement action, without respect to responsibility.
 
Jay Urish said:
How odd, I just ran into a similar situation, So I asked CFI Amir for clarification. According to him, 14cfr 61.57 only applies if you are carrying "passengers" and not "pilots". A non current pilot can fly all night solo even if they have never done a night landing in all their life. Two non current pilots can do the same thing. The way I understand it, your pilot certificate pulls you out of the "passenger" category.
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I don't believe that's supported by anything other than his opinion. There is the exception that a CFI-providing-instruction is not considered a passenger, but that doesn't extend to CFI-just-riding-along or other pilots.

I was recently in a GA airplane in the back. Rare but it happens every few years. The pilot certainly had to be passenger-carrying current for me to be on board.
 
Lachlan said:
I believe that since the left seater is not night current, and therefore not allowed to carry passengers, you must exit the aircraft at the stroke of the end of civil twilight...
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Preferably after landing. Bring parachutes otherwise.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We didn't get into that level of specifics.
Hypothetical. I was having a discussion about currency and I was arguing that after sun sets, the night current passenger would become PIC at that point.
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Only if he accepts the role of PIC. He could say, nah, I ain't the PIC, you are illegal dude, don't crash and hurt me or I'll sue you for everything ya got.
 
Jay Urish said:
So I asked CFI Amir for clarification. According to him, 14cfr 61.57 only applies if you are carrying "passengers" and not "pilots". A non current pilot can fly all night solo even if they have never done a night landing in all their life. Two non current pilots can do the same thing. The way I understand it, your pilot certificate pulls you out of the "passenger" category.
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No, it does not. Two non-current pilots can NOT do this, because whichever one is not the PIC, is a passenger in the eyes of the FAA.

A CFI giving instruction *is* pulled out of the "passenger" category. Two non-current CFI's giving instruction to each other could do this, which is maybe what your CFI was describing. But not regular garden-variety non-CFI pilots.
 
My answer depends on how this situation came to the FAA's attention and who I represent.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
You are a pilot riding as a passenger with another pilot. You are night current. They are not.
The sun sets. Did you just become PIC?
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§ 1.1 General definitions
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

And if you are in the right seat and not proficient making landing from the right seat you should not accept PIC status.


§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
 
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So, if two non current, non instrument rated private pilots are flying the plane, which one gets the violation.??

And how does the flight get logged.??

(hints)

1. I don't need to be the fastest runner...

2. That's why i use a pencil in my log book...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I was arguing that after sun sets, the night current passenger would become PIC at that point.
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There is no regulation which creates a process under which the role of PIC would automatically transfer from one pilot to another when the original PIC because illegal to continue performing as PIC. The PIC remains PIC even when he is engaging in an operation for which he is not authorized or qualified.

Realizing that he is about to become unqualified due to the lack of night currency, the PIC can ask the other pilot to assume the role of PIC, and that other pilot can accept it. Nothing in that process requires is a transfer of the airplane's controls.

Jay Urish said:
So I asked CFI Amir for clarification. According to him, 14cfr 61.57 only applies if you are carrying "passengers" and not "pilots".
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Ask Amir to back that claim up with a regulation or interpretation. Pilots can be passengers and they often are. There are situations where multiple pilots can be onboard and none of them are passengers but there must be something about the operation which makes them other than passengers. i.e. being a required crewmember.

A non current pilot can fly all night solo even if they have never done a night landing in all their life.
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If they've never done a night landing in all their life then their pilot certificate will have a restriction prohibiting them from exercising their privileges at night.


Two non current pilots can do the same thing. The way I understand it, your pilot certificate pulls you out of the "passenger" category.[/QUOTE]
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
You are a pilot riding as a passenger with another pilot. You are night current. They are not.
The sun sets. Did you just become PIC?
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If you you are on basic med and the pilot in the left seat puts on foggles without your objection, then I suppose the answer is yes.
 
Larry in TN said:
There is no regulation which creates a process under which the role of PIC would automatically transfer from one pilot to another when the original PIC because illegal to continue performing as PIC. The PIC remains PIC even when he is engaging in an operation for which he is not authorized or qualified.

Realizing that he is about to become unqualified due to the lack of night currency, the PIC can ask the other pilot to assume the role of PIC, and that other pilot can accept it. Nothing in that process requires is a transfer of the airplane's controls.


Ask Amir to back that claim up with a regulation or interpretation. Pilots can be passengers and they often are. There are situations where multiple pilots can be onboard and none of them are passengers but there must be something about the operation which makes them other than passengers. i.e. being a required crewmember.


If they've never done a night landing in all their life then their pilot certificate will have a restriction prohibiting them from exercising their privileges at night.


Two non current pilots can do the same thing. The way I understand it, your pilot certificate pulls you out of the "passenger" category.
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[/QUOTE]

Or you could read the exceptions in 61.56(e).
 
If the flight does not have a happy ending the NTSB will decide.

You may be the “ Inadvertent PIC” then.

My first was riding in a Fairchild and asking the “pilot” ;

“ Johnny; when did you get your license?”

He answered “ I don’t have one !”

AOPA atty says I would be considered PIC.
 

Or you could read the exceptions in 61.56(e).[/QUOTE]
Does the Wings program make one night current?
 
Magman said:
If the flight does not have a happy ending the NTSB will decide.

You may be the “ Inadvertent PIC” then.
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This is pretty close to the answer. There have been situations in which the FAA has treated a pilot as PIC when the pilot didn't plan for it or want it, so it can happen. Plus, there is the truism that the PIC's ultimate responsibility doesn't mean no one else has any, which muddies the enforcement waters if there is an incident which brings it to the FAA's attention.

Those determinations are not subject to easy black and white rules which tend to be some combination of simplistic and cynical.
SixPapaCharlie said:
We didn't get into that level of specifics.
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But, in the real enforcement world that's what is required.

For funny, stick with @Lachlan's answer.
 
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