Stranded - need alternator help

[Ed Haywood]

I think you could make a reasonable case there there is a missing category of regulatory regime for aircraft, parts, and maintenance in between LSA/EAB and Certified. Does my 2 seat tube and fabric certified taildragger really require instruments with the same design and production standards as the avionics for a King Air charter aircraft? Does the mechanic on a 4 seat spam can really need to know how to maintain turbine engines, APU's, and pressurized cabins? Does a Cessna 152 really need LED nav/strobes costing a thousand dollars?

 

[SkyDog58]

I agree with you Ed and for sometime I have advocated for a new repairman certificate being created for owner maintained aircraft similar to what is allowed for EAB and LSA. I think a course similar to the LSA maintenance course but longer than the 120 hours required for LSA Repairman but far less than the time required for A&P; plus a written exam. Can’t make it too easy.

I would want the restriction that it is limited to an aircraft owned by the repairman and that it is limited to certain type of aircraft, though I am uncertain where to draw the line, I.e. 4 seat or less, < 200 HP, single engine, etc. But considering what is allowed for EAB and LSA, it is a bit silly that a J-3 or C-150 requires the same mechanic that a B787 does.

But until that happens, pilots need to follow the current order of things and the regulations.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Canada has an owner maintenance airworthiness certificate option, but I'm pretty sure that it resulted in fiery death raining from the sky - just like E-AB aircraft in the US.

 

[Magman]

I’ve worked with a lot some owners . Some are great and others could be deadly.

Bondo on a prop is one example.

Hope would resale be affected?

 

[Bell206]

though I am uncertain where to draw the line

i think either follow the guidelines that were part of primary non-commercial proposal or follow the TCCA Owner Maintained program. In my opinion it would be difficult to go by general performance, capacity, etc as too many variables. However, people will need to understand the restrictions on this path similar to the TCCA program: no export, no ops outside US, reversal issues, etc.

 

[SkyDog58]

Canada has an owner maintenance airworthiness certificate option, but I'm pretty sure that it resulted in fiery death raining from the sky - just like E-AB aircraft in the US.

Oh don’t be ridiculous, the death rain isn’t always fiery. Sometimes it’s just bloody.

 

[Bell206]

reasonable case there there is a missing category of regulatory regime for aircraft, parts, and maintenance in between LSA/EAB and Certified. Does my 2

There was a discussion on this years ago when they were attempting to create a new Part 66 for mx qualifications. It ended up failing for other issues but in addition to the "type rating" system for APs there was some head way being done to expand the repairmans system to include other "airmen" .

 

[ktup-flyer]

Swap these to adels while you’re at it

 

[Half Fast]

I would want the restriction that it is limited to an aircraft owned by the repairman and that it is limited to certain type of aircraft, though I am uncertain where to draw the line, I.e. 4 seat or less, < 200 HP, single engine, etc. But considering what is allowed for EAB and LSA, it is a bit silly that a J-3 or C-150 requires the same mechanic that a B787 does.

Great idea. Why not draw the same line as Basic Med aircraft?

 

[SkyDog58]

Great idea. Why not draw the same line as Basic Med aircraft?

That would be a decent idea as it makes remembering the criteria easier. Having too many different categorizations makes things more difficult than necessary.

 

[Half Fast]

That would be a decent idea as it makes remembering the criteria easier. Having too many different categorizations makes things more difficult than necessary.

And the FAA has already accepted the idea of those aircraft being in a special “less demanding” grouping.

 

[Bell206]

Great idea. Why not draw the same line as Basic Med

Except that you can fly a turbine aircraft under basic med. From a mx standpoint that doesnt equate to a good idea under the present context.

 

[Half Fast]

Except that you can fly a turbine aircraft under basic med. From a mx standpoint that doesnt equate to a good idea under the present context.

Self-correcting.

Reminds me of a favorite quote from Igor Sikorsky: “At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation.”

 

[cowman]

I would have gone the hardware store route too, pick up a cheap wrench set and DIY it on the ramp. Maybe drip a little blue locktite on the threads to be really sure it wouldn't come apart. That said I have a good deal of experience working on automotive stuff so an alternator bracket doesn't look very intimidating to me, others with less experience might feel differently.

One thought that is popping in my head is that there's such a thing as an "owner produced part". I'm guessing that isn't a thing one can use here to be legalish?

 

[Half Fast]

One thought that is popping in my head is that there's such a thing as an "owner produced part". I'm guessing that isn't a thing one can use here to be legalish?

No, there are some criteria for OPPs. The owner doesn't have to actually make the part but he does have to be involved by providing a drawing or establishing quality assurance or something similar.

 

[Bell206]

Reminds me of a favorite quote from Igor Sikorsky:

In that case perhaps we should limit the owner mx category to single seat aircraft?

One thought that is popping in my head is that there's such a thing as an "owner produced part". I'm guessing that isn't a thing one can use here to be legalish?

FYI: owner produced must be manudactured vs store bought.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

In that case perhaps we should limit the owner mx category to single seat aircraft?

FYI: owner produced must be manudactured vs store bought.

Draw a picture of a bolt on paper. Buy a metric hardware store bolt and a file and file down the flats slightly to fit your Imperial wrench. Owner-produced?

 

[Bell206]

hardware store bolt

Ha no. Key words. But given the proper AN bolt doesnt go through the "approval" process as it is a standard part a bit overkill. Now pick up a steel rod at the hardware store of the proper material and size, cut the threads, form the bolt head, and substantiate/document your bolt meets the same specs as the AN, then sure. Easier/cheaper to over-night a bolt from Spruce.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

So....is the plane still "stranded"?

 

[Dan Thomas]

That said I have a good deal of experience working on automotive stuff so an alternator bracket doesn't look very intimidating to me, others with less experience might feel differently.

That's one of the factors in the arguments here. Some folks--no, many folks--don't know what they're looking at in that picture and so they're thinking that a hardware-store bolt is surely going to fall off and the airplane will crash. They have never bought hardware and built anything with it. Their experience with nuts and bolts might be the horribly cheap Asian stuff that comes with their new computer desk, and they think all hardware is weak like that. Comparing tensile specs between AN and Grade 5 bolts means nothing to them. A 7/16 Grade 5 bolt has a tensile strength of over 18,000 pounds in the shank and maybe 10,000 in the threaded area, enough to lift four of those airplanes all at once. I think it's stout enough to hold that alternator.

The other factor is the legal aspect of it, and that IS a legitimate concern. Sometimes the law is (or seems) stupid, but it's written that way because a lot of owners need to be kept away from tools.

 

[Gary Ward]

That's one of the factors in the arguments here. Some folks--no, many folks--don't know what they're looking at in that picture and so they're thinking that a hardware-store bolt is surely going to fall off and the airplane will crash. They have never bought hardware and built anything with it. Their experience with nuts and bolts might be the horribly cheap Asian stuff that comes with their new computer desk, and they think all hardware is weak like that. Comparing tensile specs between AN and Grade 5 bolts means nothing to them. A 7/16 Grade 5 bolt has a tensile strength of over 18,000 pounds in the shank and maybe 10,000 in the threaded area, enough to lift four of those airplanes all at once. I think it's stout enough to hold that alternator.

The other factor is the legal aspect of it, and that IS a legitimate concern. Sometimes the law is (or seems) stupid, but it's written that way because a lot of owners need to be kept away from tools.

This reminds of mounting a car engine to a engine stand.
So many think it needs to be a grade 8 bolt with the perfect length.
Many will go to the ends of the earth to find such a bolt.
Grade 5 is all you need.
I don't even use bolts, I use all thread rod, washes and nuts.

That way I can screw the all thread all the way into the engine block and secure it to the stand with nuts. Way better to thread the all thread rod all the way into the block before mounting to the engine stand verses trying to thread the bolts through the stand into the block and buggering up the block threads.
I have a set of 3/8-16 and a set of 7/16 all thread that covers all american car and truck engines that I have used for 30 years.
I have mounted many different engines over the years and have never had one break off or tip over.
I have a custom engine stand that was welded together in hi school in 1978 that I still use to today. Way better and more stable that a imported engine stand.

I have 3 of these 3000hp hemi that I rotate using. For a while there I was overhauling one every 2-3 weeks for 9 years.

A little billet eye candy.

 

[SkyDog58]

Except that you can fly a turbine aircraft under basic med. From a mx standpoint that doesnt equate to a good idea under the present context.

What if there is a restriction that maintenance on turbines is limited to R&R of LRUs such as the starter, generator, FCU, etc.? An owner repairman wouldn’t be allowed to split the case or replace modules. Would that level of risk be acceptable?

 

[pfarber]

The battery would run the engine

Magneto's have entered the chat.

An FBO or MX has ABSOLUTELY ZERO AUTHORITY TO REMOVE THE AIRWORTHINESS of an type certified aircraft. The PIC is solely responsible for the decision.

Would I recommend the use of a grade 5 bolt or to simply remove the belt and fly on battery? Sure. They are both possibilities that would not have any significant risk to safety of flight as long as the PIC was aware of the limitations of the temporary repair.

Lots of people here think that a grade 5 bolt is not an acceptable substitute to an AN bolt. They pretty much are the same thing. The only really difference is grip lengths.

Would I sign it off? Nope.

As to 'owner/operator maintenance'. Hells to the no.

How many PPLs could even gas up the AC they fly? Or properly refuel it? Yet they can now change a tire/oil/safety wire?

 

[Dan Thomas]

Magneto's have entered the chat.

An FBO or MX has ABSOLUTELY ZERO AUTHORITY TO REMOVE THE AIRWORTHINESS of an type certified aircraft. The PIC is solely responsible for the decision.

Maybe you could quote me accurately. I said the battery would run the engine and fuel gauges, not the engine.

A maintenance shop that finds an airworthiness defect that the owner refuses to fix has to enter that defect in the logs to protect itself. That effectively makes the airplane unairworthy, and if the owner decides he knows better and flies it, he is responsible. If a owner that grounds his aircraft for an airworthiness issue and another pilot flies it anyway, that pilot is at fault and will pay for it. The PIC is not entitled to call it whatever he likes.

 

[Dan Thomas]

This reminds of mounting a car engine to a engine stand.
So many think it needs to be a grade 8 bolt with the perfect length.
Many will go to the ends of the earth to find such a bolt.
Grade 5 is all you need.
I don't even use bolts, I use all thread rod, washes and nuts.

That way I can screw the all thread all the way into the engine block and secure it to the stand with nuts. Way better to thread the all thread rod all the way into the block before mounting to the engine stand verses trying to thread the bolts through the stand into the block and buggering up the block threads.

Yup. All-thread rod is typically Grade 2, which has a tensile of 74,000 PSI, a bit over half what Grade 5 or AN stuff does. Plenty strong enough to hold an engine on a stand.

 

[Bell206]

Sometimes the law is (or seems) stupid, but it's written that way because a lot of owners need to be kept away from tools.

FYI: those same laws are also written to meet the requirements of various bilateral agreements which dont always make sense some operations.

 

[UngaWunga]

really? Everyone I know who flies can fuel their own plane, most can do basic maintenance without killing a busload of orphans.

 

[Bell206]

What if there is a restriction that maintenance on turbines is limited to R&R of LRUs such as the starter, generator, FCU, etc.? An owner repairman wouldn’t be allowed to split the case or replace modules. Would that level of risk be acceptable?

Personally, i dont think its a matter of ability when it comes to owner mx as the ones who will take advantage of it are mostly the ones who work their aircraft now via prevent mx. My concern is if they expand owner mx to include turbines, helicopters, or other high end aircraft that there will be no feasible method to reverse the owner mx designation and the potential loss of value, restricted operations, no exports, etc will catch unsuspecting owner off guard with extremely negative effects.

 

[Dana]

Lots of people here think that a grade 5 bolt is not an acceptable substitute to an AN bolt. They pretty much are the same thing. The only really difference is grip lengths.

Well, not quite. They have the same nominal strength, but the AN bolt has higher standards for tolerances, radii (important for fatigue strength), and quality control in general.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a grade 5 bolt to hold my alternator on to get back home... but I wouldn't use one to hold my wing on or any other critical joint.

really? Everyone I know who flies can fuel their own plane, most can do basic maintenance without killing a busload of orphans.

I don't know about "everyone". All of my flying friends, sure, because that's the kind of people I hang out with. But there are other pilots on the field who wouldn't (and shouldn't) attempt the most basic of maintenance tasks, though they seem to have mastered pumping gas.

 

[UngaWunga]

I don't know about "everyone". All of my flying friends, sure, because that's the kind of people I hang out with. But there are other pilots on the field who wouldn't (and shouldn't) attempt the most basic of maintenance tasks, though they seem to have mastered pumping gas.

Yes, which is why its dangerous to lump everyone together in a same "ThEy CaN't Do AnYtHiNg" category. And I'm still talking about a single bolt. Well, a bolt, some washers, a nut and some lockwire. There I go, blowing things out of proportion again...

 

[Dan Thomas]

I don't know about "everyone". All of my flying friends, sure, because that's the kind of people I hang out with. But there are other pilots on the field who wouldn't (and shouldn't) attempt the most basic of maintenance tasks, though they seem to have mastered pumping gas.

We taught new students how to fuel up and add oil right from the start. Some of them came to us from other flight schools and were shocked that we would let them do this stuff.

 

[Ed Haywood]

LOL when I first got my plane, I washed the wings with Avgas several times.

 

[Lindberg]

FYI: owner produced must be manudactured vs store bought.

All store-bought parts are manufactured.

 

[Mxfarm]

Fueling is harder than it’s given credit for. Once had a lineman leave both fuel caps off a Cessna - and he was a professional.

really? Everyone I know who flies can fuel their own plane, most can do basic maintenance without killing a busload of orphans.

 

[Dana]

Fueling is harder than it’s given credit for. Once had a lineman leave both fuel caps off a Cessna - and he was a professional.

No lineman will service my plane.

 

[Bell206]

All store-bought parts are manufactured.

Ha. But not by the owner.

 

[Magman]

Fueling is harder than it’s given credit for. Once had a lineman leave both fuel caps off a Cessna - and he was a professional.

Did you say; “ Top off the tanks?”

 

[Lindberg]

Ha. But not by the owner.

True. But owner-produced parts don't have to be manufactured by the owner.

 

[Bell206]

True. But owner-produced parts don't have to be manufactured by the owner.

True also. So which of the 5 requirements is an owner performing with a store bought part that makes it Part 21 approved?

 

[Mxfarm]

ROTFL - uhm, no, it was a rental, it would have been an ‘need full fuel’, type direction.

Did you say; “ Top off the tanks?”