Possible kit professional build

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kes7u

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KSnyder
Hello all! New here, and this is my first post.

I met someone at a Halloween party who built his own experimental airplane and now enjoys flying around the country. I must have asked him a million questions at the time. I've spent every possible moment since then researching aviation in general, but LSA aircrafts and Sports pilot licensure in particular. I'm fascinated by this, and very excited to pursue this in the near future.

Given my schedule and apparent lack of local LSA options, I may pursue accelerated licensure in Florida, even if it means more than 1 trip.

I also plan to buy my own airplane. Mainly for cruising and weekend trips with my wife. I've researched many LSA aircrafts, and come down to 2 (so far!) I would like to bring along my dog, so really want the baggage compartment in the cockpit, unfortunately eliminating the Flight Design aircrafts.

First is the Aeroprakt A32. Reasonable price. Good cruising speed and range. Reasonable size baggage compartment and capacity (66lbs). Good empty weight.

Second is the Rans s20 Raven. Good cruising speed and range. Good empty weight. Great baggage compartment size and capacity. (80lbs) This is only available as a kit. This DOES look to have been certified in the past as an SLSA. Does this mean that I could have a professional build the aircraft for me?? I must admit, the rules remain somewhat confusing to me. In this forum, I noticed the company GA Aerospace. Are there others that build these professionally? Obviously I can look into it, but any idea of approximate cost?

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and in advance for any advice.

Kevin
 
A pro build isn't amateur built, but the FAA seems to look the other way on this.
Personally, I'd look for used and expect a long wait to find something.
 
The only thing I am aware of are so called build assist programs where you work with some professionals for 2-4 weeks at their place and then get your plane. Not all kit manufacturers offer this sort of service...

I would go for A32 if you are willing to pay for it ( new or used ) ... you gonna get a factory build plane and A32 is a sweet ride.
 
In general, there are two ways to go: Experimental Amateur Built - you are supposed to comply with the so called 51% rule - that would generally rule out the "pay someone to build". There are serial builders who like to build and sell, but the "I will pay you to build this for me" concept does not comply with the intent of the regulations.
Experimental LSA - the good news is that the 51% rule is not in play - but it requires that someone build it as a copy of an SLSA. Dunno if the S-20 was ever offered as an SLSA - A quick phone call to Rans would answer that question...
 
kes7u said:
Hello all! New here, and this is my first post.

I met someone at a Halloween party who built his own experimental airplane and now enjoys flying around the country. I must have asked him a million questions at the time. I've spent every possible moment since then researching aviation in general, but LSA aircrafts and Sports pilot licensure in particular. I'm fascinated by this, and very excited to pursue this in the near future.

Given my schedule and apparent lack of local LSA options, I may pursue accelerated licensure in Florida, even if it means more than 1 trip.

I also plan to buy my own airplane. Mainly for cruising and weekend trips with my wife. I've researched many LSA aircrafts, and come down to 2 (so far!) I would like to bring along my dog, so really want the baggage compartment in the cockpit, unfortunately eliminating the Flight Design aircrafts.

First is the Aeroprakt A32. Reasonable price. Good cruising speed and range. Reasonable size baggage compartment and capacity (66lbs). Good empty weight.

Second is the Rans s20 Raven. Good cruising speed and range. Good empty weight. Great baggage compartment size and capacity. (80lbs) This is only available as a kit. This DOES look to have been certified in the past as an SLSA. Does this mean that I could have a professional build the aircraft for me?? I must admit, the rules remain somewhat confusing to me. In this forum, I noticed the company GA Aerospace. Are there others that build these professionally? Obviously I can look into it, but any idea of approximate cost?

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and in advance for any advice.

Kevin
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Why not the S21 Outbound? It can be bought as an SLSA and will meet all your requirements. You could also look at the Bushcat and several others. There really isn't anything wrong with someone building an experimental airplane for the experience, then selling it. As mentioned previously, a lot of people circumvent the system by advertising as a "completion center" where they "offer their expertise and equipment" to build your airplane though I expect a lot of them will just do it for you. The reality is, it will cost more than an SLSA if you can find one you like.
 
Thank you everyone!!!

I have been assuming that I would go in the direction of the Aeroprakt, but wanted to exhaust all of my options.

The Rans S20 Raven was certified as SLSA in 2016 and actually offered for sale as a completed SLSA aircraft for a time. So if I DID go in this direction, it would need to be built identical to the SLSA and then certified as ELSA. I suppose the negatives to this approach are a likely higher cost and likely lower resale value.

The S21 Outbound is too heavy!! (as are the Sling LSA and Jobiru 230) My wife and I only weigh 300lbs together. But the combination of the empty plane, luggage, dog and us does not leave enough fuel capacity compared with the other aircrafts.

Kevin
 
I would compare the costs to get one built with the cost of a used aircraft (even if hard to find). A couple brands tend to command premium prices (Vans, Kitfox - not sure where Rans stands), but I got my (older) ride already flying for less than the cost of the kit.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
I would compare the costs to get one built with the cost of a used aircraft (even if hard to find). A couple brands tend to command premium prices (Vans, Kitfox - not sure where Rans stands), but I got my (older) ride already flying for less than the cost of the kit.
Click to expand...
Thank you! Best places to look for these aircrafts???

Kevin
 
kes7u said:
The S21 Outbound is too heavy!!
Click to expand...
There are several loop holes that are often exploited in the LSA market. One of which is to register it with a lower gross weight to fit the LSA rules when the same exact airplane is rated to a 1500 lb gross. Take that for what you will... haha
 
Welcome to PoA!

A local flight school ordered some S21s with Rotax engines. I believe they are SLSA. You'd have to call Rans and ask. Pick one up for me while you're out...
 
Provided the pro isn't the manufacturer of the kit, the FAA doesn't work up a sweat. Even "assistance centers" by the manufacturer don't seem to get much scrutiny these days.
 
Thank you everyone for your input! I look forward to participating more here in the future.

Kevin
 
It wasn't on your preferred list but the Vans RV-12 can be SLSA, ELSA, or even Ex-Ab.

BTW ... welcome to the funhouse ... :)

Edit: for fat fingers ...
 
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flyingron said:
Provided the pro isn't the manufacturer of the kit, the FAA doesn't work up a sweat. Even "assistance centers" by the manufacturer don't seem to get much scrutiny these days.
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They haven't so far, but they could. And if they do, thousands of E/AB will no longer fit that category, I'm thinking that some at the agency believe that the "back door manufacturer" may be making safer planes, and they are likely correct.
 
Daleandee said:
It wasn't on your proffered list but the Vans RV-12 can be SLSA, ELSA, or even Ex-Ab.

BTW ... welcome to the funhouse ... :)
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Yes! Neglected to mention that, but it is DEFINITELY on the list. Good baggage weight capacity now up to 75lbs, but not sure about the baggage space itself.

I'm hoping to see these planes and more at Oshkosh in July, and then hopefully make a decision.

Kevin
 
Builder assist programs are 100% legit and keep you at 50.01%. You build one wing, and part of another, you get credit for the 50.01% you need.

Having all the tools and parts on hand as well as assistance speeds things up tremendously. I've spent a week looking for mahogany... a builder assist program would have every on a table, and also a helper to get it for you. It will almost double the cost of a kit, though.

If you want to fly, buy a flying AC. Certified AC are not evil, just have the $$ for the higher per hour costs. Things like hangers etc don't change from certified to E/AB.

A used certified AC will always have value. Used E/ABs generally are priced out on the engine and avionics. Yoo never recover the build costs
 
I recommend you look into the Vashon Ranger. Amazing value, IMO.
 
The FAA has never cracked down on builder assist programs, but I think the door is wide open if they want to. I think they could crush a lot of dreams if they wanted to.

As far as resale values go, all the STOL stuff is bringing a fortune these days (well over build cost) as are RV's. That could change tomorrow.

I can tell you that my RV-6 (now 20 years old) got offers for 2x what it cost me to build the first time I took it to Oshkosh, and is probably worth the same today. The RV-10 project that is currently at the paint shop would easily (I think) bring 33% more than I'll have in it when it flies.

But I agree that the rest of the homebuilt field generally doesn't hold (or gain) value like RV's or STOL aircraft do currently.
 
If anything, the FAA is moving in the direction of allowing more professional help, realizing (as Kenny pointed out) that it probably makes for safer airplanes. The long awaited updated LSA rules supposedly will expand on that.

If you're not looking for a STOL plane or RV there are some screaming deals out there on already flying experimentals.
 
pfarber said:
A used certified AC will always have value. Used E/ABs generally are priced out on the engine and avionics. Yoo never recover the build costs
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While it's true, you almost never recover the build costs, the delta is probably not much different than the acquisition/upgrade cost vs. sale price some years later for certificated aircraft.
 
MountainDude said:
I recommend you look into the Vashon Ranger. Amazing value, IMO.
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Again. too heavy. 875 lbs empty. My wife and I are 300lbs together. 25 gallons of fuel puts us over the 1320lb limit without any baggage.

These heavier LSAs don't make a lot of sense to me until/unless the LSA weight limit is increased. If/when that happens, that also removes SOME of the beneficial economics of flying LSA given the increased fuel usage. IMHO.

Kevin
 
There's also the option of buying a used factory built SLSA that fits your mission profile, then employing the services of a DAR to perform the inspection and complete the FAA paperwork for experimental conversion. That way you can perform your own maintenance, and after successfully completing an approved 16 hour light sport repairman - inspection course you can apply to the local FAA FSDO for an FAA LSA Repairman-Inspection certificate so you can perform and sign off your annual condition inspections.

That's what I did with my factory built SLSA. I used Brian and Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation Services for both the conversion to experimental and the LSR-I course.
 
Stan Cooper said:
There's also the option of buying a used factory built SLSA that fits your mission profile, then employing the services of a DAR to perform the inspection and complete the FAA paperwork for experimental conversion. That way you can perform your own maintenance, and after successfully completing an approved 16 hour light sport repairman - inspection course you can apply to the local FAA FSDO for an FAA LSA Repairman-Inspection certificate so you can perform and sign off your annual condition inspections.

That's what I did with my factory built SLSA. I used Brian and Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation Services for both the conversion to experimental and the LSR-I course.
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Thank you for the information!

Kevin
 
pfarber said:
the data you provided supports your statement.

There is no way this is worth a quarter million... no matter how much Garmin you bolt onto it.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=VANS&model=RV-14/14A&listing_id=2399700&s-type=aircraft

Just do a search, most used E/AB are selling (not listed, but actually selling) for the value of the motor/avionics and about 30-50% of kit price.
Click to expand...
Maybe not worth that to you, but that’s what people are paying if they want one.
 
pfarber said:
the data you provided supports your statement.

There is no way this is worth a quarter million... no matter how much Garmin you bolt onto it.
Click to expand...

Maybe not to you, but the -10's and -14's are bringing a fortune and the others in the RV series (the well done ones, not the shoddy ones) are bringing substantially more than they cost to build.
 
Most RVs are sanely priced. If you look at the motor and avionics and the kit cost they are not looking for a 2-4x multiple. The trade a plane listed quite a few RVs for a more reasonable $50k-80k.

Show me some of these RV's and we'll see if they are worth what they claim to be.
 
What you think is different than what the market reflects. The market has concluded that the -7's and 8's are generally worth $100K plus, and $150K is doable. The -14's are $200K plus, and the -10's are north of that. A nice -6 might bring $100k, and a -4 is worth less than that. -9's are oddballs in a way and are often valued between -6's and -7's, largely because of how they are usually equipped.

The airplanes you see for <$70 are either older, minimally equipped, scabby, etc. My 20 year old RV-6 is probably a $65K airplane in this market with a mid-time engine, a wooden prop, and VFR + AP and ADSB instrumentation.

People like going fast and escaping the shackles of the certified world.
 
I don’t understand why the market values planes the way they do, but I accept reality. Mooneys are extremely undervalued. It makes no sense to me, but I accept it because it’s reality.
 
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