What the Departure Procedure when there Is to Departure Procedure?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Today I’m taking off mild IMC IFR from KMCC in Sacramento. There’s no Obstacle Departure Procedure and no Standard Instrument Departure. So with my clearance, will ATC tell me how to fly to the first fix (LIN)? Officially then, when there are no procedures, then is the procedure to climb where ATC tells you and maintain 200f/nm climb rate?

Sorry…I’m a bit rusty on this stuff…and have never encountered this before…

Thank in advance!
 
They most likely will give you a heading. If not, you can go direct LIN. Climb and maintain whatever they cleared you to at whatever rate you can that is at or above min climb gradient.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Today I’m taking off mild IMC IFR from KMCC in Sacramento. There’s no Obstacle Departure Procedure and no Standard Instrument Departure. So with my clearance, will ATC tell me how to fly to the first fix (LIN)? Officially then, when there are no procedures, then is the procedure to climb where ATC tells you and maintain 200f/nm climb rate?

Sorry…I’m a bit rusty on this stuff…and have never encountered this before…

Thank in advance!
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Because there is no T on the approach charts, and takeoff minimums are authorized, it is a diverse departure. If ATC does not provide specific instructions, upon reaching 400 feet agl, you are free to proceed direct to LIN.
 
"Cleared to [destination] as filed" means takeoff and fly the route you filed. If ATC needs you to do something different than that there will be additional instructions. At a non-towered field in VMC, comply with applicable traffic pattern procedures then join your route as traffic permits.

If it's IMC then you will need to evaluate the terrain and obstructions to ensure that you can climb to the minimum IFR altitude safely.

I'm sure Sacramento approach will be you a heading to fly on departure then radar vectors to join your route.
 
aterpster said:
Because there is no T on the approach charts, and takeoff minimums are authorized, it is a diverse departure. If ATC does not provide specific instructions, upon reaching 400 feet agl, you are free to proceed direct to LIN.
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That would assume LIN is included in the Clearance.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Today I’m taking off mild IMC IFR from KMCC in Sacramento. There’s no Obstacle Departure Procedure and no Standard Instrument Departure. So with my clearance, will ATC tell me how to fly to the first fix (LIN)? Officially then, when there are no procedures, then is the procedure to climb where ATC tells you and maintain 200f/nm climb rate?

Sorry…I’m a bit rusty on this stuff…and have never encountered this before…

Thank in advance!
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Where are you going? What altitude do you want. Are you GPS equipped?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Today I’m taking off mild IMC IFR from KMCC in Sacramento. There’s no Obstacle Departure Procedure and no Standard Instrument Departure. So with my clearance, will ATC tell me how to fly to the first fix (LIN)? Officially then, when there are no procedures, then is the procedure to climb where ATC tells you and maintain 200f/nm climb rate?

Sorry…I’m a bit rusty on this stuff…and have never encountered this before…

Thank in advance!
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The 200ft/NM up to 400 ft is your responsibility. Even if your release says "turn to a heading of XYZ after departure" that doesn't mean you should turn immediately after lift-off.
 
Look up what a “diverse departure” is. It is a term of art that covers your situation.
 
aterpster said:
If you do, you are violating procedure. No different than descending prematurely on an IAP.
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Under 91 you would not be violating a procedure since you are not required to comply with an obstacle departure procedure (unless it’s part of a clearance or SID). Yould be foolish not to comply but not illegal. Except where diverse vector area are established ATC can turn an IFR departure immediately after departure even before 400 feet so if you want to comply with a diverse departure it will be up to you to delay a turn until 400 feet.

always remember. It will be you they dig out of the pile of smoldering aluminum not the controller. He will just have to fill out paperwork.

tex
 
Dave S. said:
Except where diverse vector area are established ATC can turn an IFR departure immediately after departure even before 400 feet so if you want to comply with a diverse departure it will be up to you to delay a turn until 400 feet.
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If the "immediate turn" conflicts with the pilot's needs the pilot had better say something. The turn might be for traffic.
 
Dave S. said:
Under 91 you would not be violating a procedure since you are not required to comply with an obstacle departure procedure (unless it’s part of a clearance or SID). Yould be foolish not to comply but not illegal. Except where diverse vector area are established ATC can turn an IFR departure immediately after departure even before 400 feet so if you want to comply with a diverse departure it will be up to you to delay a turn until 400 feet.

always remember. It will be you they dig out of the pile of smoldering aluminum not the controller. He will just have to fill out paperwork.

tex
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DVA and diverse departure are two different things. In either case you don't turn below 400 feet, afe.
 
aterpster said:
DVA and diverse departure are two different things. In either case you don't turn below 400 feet, afe.
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Yeah. They shouldn't have used the word 'diverse' in both of those. Causes a lot of confusion. I figure change Diverse Vector Area to something like Radar Vector Departure. RVD. Something like that.
 
Very rare to get nothing from the tower in terms of course guidance to the first fix. If you receive no instructions, AND an instrument approach exists, AND the Takeof Off Minimums document contains no reference to a departure procedure, then you're good to execute a diverse departure. Cross DER at or above 35', climb to 400ft AGL, turn on course to first fix. You won't hit anything.
 
For folks flying IFR in MVFR/VFR conditions, do folks generally wait till TPA to turn (particularly if the first turn is against standard traffic, e.g. you need to turn right)?
 
Trogdor said:
For folks flying IFR in MVFR/VFR conditions, do folks generally wait till TPA to turn (particularly if the first turn is against standard traffic, e.g. you need to turn right)?
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I was taught to make the turn at 400 AGL unless otherwise specified. And the regulation specifying direction of turns in the pattern specifies "when approaching to land," which is not what you're doing on a departure.
 
Trogdor said:
For folks flying IFR in MVFR/VFR conditions, do folks generally wait till TPA to turn (particularly if the first turn is against standard traffic, e.g. you need to turn right)?
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Allow me to rephrase your question:

When other folks are flying in MVFR/VFR conditions, should IFR folks generally wait till TPA to turn (particularly if the first turn is against standard traffic, e.g. you need to turn right)?
​
Yes, IMO, they should.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was taught to make the turn at 400 AGL unless otherwise specified. And the regulation specifying direction of turns in the pattern specifies "when approaching to land," which is not what you're doing on a departure.
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The OP was planning an uncontrolled airport departure. At a controlled field like, say, Palo Alto I'd think you could get any reasonable thing you ask for.
 
dtuuri said:
The OP was planning an uncontrolled airport departure. At a controlled field like, say, Palo Alto I'd think you could get any reasonable thing you ask for.
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PAO has unpublished instructions they give:

"Turn to heading 060 with one mile of Palo Alto Airport. Climb and maintain X thousand. Expect Y thousand within five minutes after departure."​

Depending on where your destination is, the initial heading may be something like 140 instead.
 
dtuuri said:
Allow me to rephrase your question:

When other folks are flying in MVFR/VFR conditions, should IFR folks generally wait till TPA to turn (particularly if the first turn is against standard traffic, e.g. you need to turn right)?
​
Yes, IMO, they should.
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This is what I was taught as well. If flying out of an uncontrolled airport IFR on a MVFR/VFR day (or you just hear someone in the pattern), wait until TPA before going direct to your first fix. I will typically check in at this point with N90 (so I’m at a 1000 ft at this point).

No one in the pattern, 400AGL is fine but on clear days, why? Just seems safer to hit TPA.

Again, all of this is when no instructions are given (RV/SID etc.), you aren’t flying the ODP (pretend its CAVOK), and you need to depart (diverse departure essentially).
 
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