Direction of turn when cleared "upon entering controlled airspace fly heading xxx"

[MattC]

Hey folks

I have a question regarding IFR departure from an non towered airport: the other day I was taking off RWY03, and was issued "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 180".

Should I have made a right turn (the shortest) or a left turn to observe the local VFR traffic pattern rules? I know local traffic pattern rules are controlling during a circling approach, so maybe they are also when doing a circling departure?

I chose a right turn, as I assumed ATC would have told me if they wanted me to go the long way round to the 180º heading, but I honestly don't know what is expected of me.

Any thoughts?

Matt

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Shortest unless specified otherwise in published ODP

 

[Larry in TN]

If the weather is VMC, comply with applicable traffic pattern procedures. Otherwise, turns are always in the direction that is closest to the assigned heading unless otherwise specified.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If the weather is VMC, comply with applicable traffic pattern procedures. Otherwise, turns are always in the direction that is closest to the assigned heading unless otherwise specified.

The traffic pattern rule covers landings, not takeoffs ("When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower...").

The only traffic pattern rule for an IFR takeoff (which applies to both takeoffs and landings, VFR or IFR) is to not interfere with other aircraft flying a standard one.

 

[luvflyin]

Shortest unless specified otherwise in published DP

You wouldn’t get a Clearance like that if doing a DP.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

You wouldn’t get a Clearance like that if doing a DP.

Why not?

oh.

put an O in front. I’ll edit my original post for clarification.

 

[MattC]

Thanks all.

The weather was severe clear but there was nobody in the pattern, so I figured the greatest threat to my certificate was turning in a direction that the TRACON controller didn't expect, and wouldn't really have thought too much about it, but I had a student onboard preparing for his instrument rating checkride, and I didn't want to give him false info.

Any FAR/AIM references would be greatly appreciated. I looked this up in the Instrument Procedures Handbook, the Instrument Flying Handbook, and Rod Machado's instrument book. No joy.

Cheers

Matt

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks all.

The weather was severe clear but there was nobody in the pattern, so I figured the greatest threat to my certificate was turning in a direction that the TRACON controller didn't expect, and wouldn't really have thought too much about it, but I had a student onboard preparing for his instrument rating checkride, and I didn't want to give him false info.

Any FAR/AIM references would be greatly appreciated. I looked this up in the Instrument Procedures Handbook, the Instrument Flying Handbook, and Rod Machado's instrument book. No joy.

Cheers

Matt

You have to put a number of things together, including the requirement to follow your clearance in 91.123. . But it mostly comes down to, in the absence a published ODP or special takeoff minimums, you are in a diverse departure area with the standard 200 FPM obstruction clearance to the minimum IFR altitude. You said you looked at the IPH but most of what you are asking is in the Chapter on Departures. What you are supposed to do in a nontowered traffic pattern is in the AIM, but the best summary is AC 90-66B.

 

[RussR]

so I figured the greatest threat to my certificate was turning in a direction that the TRACON controller didn't expect,

You were at an uncontrolled airport. TRACON does not know, or care, which way you turn when you're in uncontrolled airspace. TRACON is not the pattern police.

Listen to the Opposing Bases podcast, they repeatedly say pretty much the same thing.

 

[Clip4]

Thanks all.

The weather was severe clear but there was nobody in the pattern, so I figured the greatest threat to my certificate was turning in a direction that the TRACON controller didn't expect, and wouldn't really have thought too much about it, but I had a student onboard preparing for his instrument rating checkride, and I didn't want to give him false info.

Any FAR/AIM references would be greatly appreciated. I looked this up in the Instrument Procedures Handbook, the Instrument Flying Handbook, and Rod Machado's instrument book. No joy.

Cheers

Matt

Keep in mind the circumstances may preclude you from accepting a clearance or require you to use some of the interval before the void time.

 

[dtuuri]

I know local traffic pattern rules are controlling during a circling approach, so maybe they are also when doing a circling departure?

Yep. From 4-3-1 of the AIM: "Pilots must be particularly alert when operating in the vicinity of an airport. This section defines some rules, practices, and procedures that pilots should be familiar with and adhere to for safe airport operations." Airport Operations (faa.gov)
There's no distinction between VFR and IFR operations at airports, but common sense says that under IMC you more or less have the sky all to yourself, so let your conscience (and TERPS) be your guide.

 

[MattC]

I will re-read Chapter 5 of the IPH. Maybe I missed something there that addressed this specific circumstance I have read AC90-66B and - once again - have not found anything that addresses this situation. Possible I might have missed the relevant passages, so it would be helpful if you could quote them for me, MLF: my wife laughs that I can't even find the bloody milk in the fridge, half the time! Also, I'll look up the Opposing Bases podcast.

I realize the TRACON controller doesn't care whether I follow left traffic at a non towered airport, but he/she DOES care if I'm 1nm to one side of the airport or the other. In their mind, they cleared one are, but probably not the other. (zero wind turning radius @90kt is ~0.5NM, thus the circumference for a 180º turn is 1NM, which would result in me being 2NM away from where the controller expects me to be).

The most reasonable interpretation would seem to be Larry's and dtuuri's, but ATC doesn't care if it's VMC or not. They expect me to be in one patch of sky, but not another, regardless of the weather. So whatever the correct procedure is, it needs to be the same regardless of weather, and it's likely to be Tarwheel's. Absent specific guidance to the contrary, that's probably what I'll keep on doing.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Take the turn away from the mountains

 

[MattC]

 

[farmrjohn]

For my own clarification: "controlled airspace" would most likely mean entering class E airspace? That could be either 700' or 1200' AGL? If 1200' AGL that would be above the (usual) traffic pattern altitude so would imply runway heading as a straight out departure until 1200' AGL?

 

[luvflyin]

Why not?

oh.

put an O in front. I’ll edit my original post for clarification.

Any DP. ODP or SID. If they assign you either, they aren’t going to say “upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 180.”

 

[Velocity173]

ATC expects you to comply with local traffic pattern rules but it’s not something they’re concerned about. They can even ask if the clearance will allow you to be able to comply with traffic pattern / terrain.



While a controller might expect you to pop up in class E at a certain sector based on the heading issued, a good controller will just sanitize 360 degrees around a class G airport. I’ve issued maybe a couple dozen or so non towered airport clearances and while probably 90 % entered the E right where I expected, there’s always someone that on their own plan. You’re in G and that’s completely alright. Just make sure you’re on that heading “when entering controlled airspace.”

 

[PaulS]

For my own clarification: "controlled airspace" would most likely mean entering class E airspace? That could be either 700' or 1200' AGL? If 1200' AGL that would be above the (usual) traffic pattern altitude so would imply runway heading as a straight out departure until 1200' AGL?

I would fly the traffic pattern in VMC, IOW, if departing opposite direction of take off, I would fly the left downwind departure, if that is standard for that area.

 

[midlifeflyer]

For my own clarification: "controlled airspace" would most likely mean entering class E airspace? That could be either 700' or 1200' AGL? If 1200' AGL that would be above the (usual) traffic pattern altitude so would imply runway heading as a straight out departure until 1200' AGL?

Yes, by controlled airspace, we are talking at least Class E. But no, a straight out departure is not implied. The reason for the "upon entering controlled airspace" instruction is simply that, by definition, ATC does not have authority over uncontrolled airspace - they can't give a binding instruction.

The basic profile for a departure, unless otherwise published, is to be at least 35' over the departure end of the airport, make your first turn no earlier than 400 AGL and maintain a 200 FPNM climb to the minimum IFR altitude. Beyond that, except that ATC is expecting to find you within a reasonable range of those parameters - they don't expect to find you 5 miles from the airport in the opposite direction from your clearance -, your profile is up to you. On a day with low ceilings and no VFR traffic, I'd make that first turn 400-500 AGL. On a VFR day, my initial profile will be based on what else is going on in the pattern.

 

[Larry in TN]

The only traffic pattern rule for an IFR takeoff (which applies to both takeoffs and landings, VFR or IFR) is to not interfere with other aircraft flying a standard one.

Also, regulation: "91.127(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter." That rule doesn't specify VFR or IFR.

Then the AIM, Advisory Circulars, and other FAA publications address traffic pattern procedures. I can 't recall any of them that exclude IFR aircraft.

 

[Larry in TN]

I will re-read Chapter 5 of the IPH. Maybe I missed something there that addressed this specific circumstance I have read AC90-66B and - once again - have not found anything that addresses this situation.

Be careful not to read any assumptions into those resources. If you don't find something that says you can't do something, you probably can.

They expect me to be in one patch of sky, but not another, regardless of the weather. So whatever the correct procedure is, it needs to be the same regardless of weather, and it's likely to be Tarwheel's. Absent specific guidance to the contrary, that's probably what I'll keep on doing.

ATC is aware that departing pilots have to deal with VFR traffic and traffic pattern operations when the reported weather suggests VFR flight is possible. *IF* they need you to do something specific on your departure in order to maintain separation than such restrictions will be part of your clearance. Flying part of the traffic pattern on a departure on a VMC day is not unexpected. Just don't do something completely unexpected, i.e. something that wouldn't be reasonably expected from your type of aircraft, without telling them first. They are protecting a relatively large chunk of airspace for you until radar contact is established.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Also, regulation: "91.127(b) Departures. Each pilot of an aircraft must comply with any traffic patterns established for that airport in part 93 of this chapter." That rule doesn't specify VFR or IFR.

Then the AIM, Advisory Circulars, and other FAA publications address traffic pattern procedures. I can 't recall any of them that exclude IFR aircraft.

Yep, we don't often think in terms of Part 93 special flight rules areas but the do sometimes have special rules.

 

[MattC]

Thanks again guys, very informative!

 

[dtuuri]

For my own clarification: "controlled airspace" would most likely mean entering class E airspace? That could be either 700' or 1200' AGL? If 1200' AGL that would be above the (usual) traffic pattern altitude so would imply runway heading as a straight out departure until 1200' AGL?

I don't think you should take such a clearance too literally. Suppose, for example, you wish to follow an ODP for your safety. You could be in controlled airspace long before you complete the ODP. Turning "When entering controlled airspace" could spell disaster.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Any DP. ODP or SID. If they assign you either, they aren’t going to say “upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 180.”

Umm not sure about that one @luvflyin plenty of times I’ve had that happen.

 

[luvflyin]

Umm not sure about that one @luvflyin plenty of times I’ve had that happen.

Do you have an example? I was thinking in terms of a Pilot Nav Sid, but yeah, I guess it could happen on a Vector SID from an airport not in a Surface Area.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Do you have an example? I was thinking in terms of a Pilot Nav Sid, but yeah, I guess it could happen on a Vector SID from an airport not in a Surface Area.

I wish is could remember a specific example for you but I don’t. Just have operated out of many uncontrolled fields that have ODP for the departure runway and been given an initial heading to fly upon entering controlled airspace.

 

[TommyG]

You’re over thinking it. If severe clear turn whenever you feel you are at a safe altitude keeping eye open for other traffic. If IMC do when you fee you are at a safe altitude.

Not every little thing is spelled out for us, we actually don’t want everything spelled out for us. Common sense is the rule for majority what we do, it needs to stay majority of how we do things.

 

[MattC]

Thanks Tommy, and you're probably right. Two things conspired to make me overthink this:
1: It occurred to me I had to set an example for my soon-to-be-examined student and
2: I fly for a living, am very protective of my certificate, and have on numerous occasions noticed how the FAA disagrees with a pilot's notion of "common sense".

 

[dtuuri]

Thanks Tommy, and you're probably right. Two things conspired to make me overthink this:
1: It occurred to me I had to set an example for my soon-to-be-examined student and
2: I fly for a living, am very protective of my certificate, and have on numerous occasions noticed how the FAA disagrees with a pilot's notion of "common sense".

Nicest rejoinder ever, IMO.

 

[Dave S.]

Hey folks

I have a question regarding IFR departure from an non towered airport: the other day I was taking off RWY03, and was issued "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading 180".

Should I have made a right turn (the shortest) or a left turn to observe the local VFR traffic pattern rules? I know local traffic pattern rules are controlling during a circling approach, so maybe they are also when doing a circling departure?

I chose a right turn, as I assumed ATC would have told me if they wanted me to go the long way round to the 180º heading, but I honestly don't know what is expected of me.

Any thoughts?

Matt

ATC doesn’t not care what you did prior to entering controlled airspace. The airspace is blocked and protected from other IFR traffic until you are in controlled airspace and identified.
You can turn left or right as far as ATC is concerned. Now YOU may have a reason to turn one way or the other based on traffic or local patterns but ATC does not care.

tex

 

[MattC]

Thanks Tex

 

[WDD]

IFR Student here - My thinking is rule 1 - don't hit anything. If the uncontrolled airport is VMC, expect unexpected VFR traffic. If the landing pattern for my departing runway is left hand, then I turn left hand on departure to follow the pattern flow. Making my calls of course. If pattern clear, I continue in pattern to mid field and then turn on heading. All of this should keep me clear of any others / make me visible to others.

 

[luvflyin]

I wish is could remember a specific example for you but I don’t. Just have operated out of many uncontrolled fields that have ODP for the departure runway and been given an initial heading to fly upon entering controlled airspace.

Yeah. That could happen. Just because the field has an ODP doesn't mean they have to assign it to you. I thought we were talking about having been assigned a DP and then also getting the 'heading when entering' speech.

 

[PaulS]

Yeah. That could happen. Just because the field has an ODP doesn't mean they have to assign it to you. I thought we were talking about having been assigned a DP and then also getting the 'heading when entering' speech.

I don't wait for an ODP, if I want it I tell them I'm flying it.

 

[luvflyin]

I don't wait for an ODP, if I want it I tell them I'm flying it.

That's good. If they haven't assigned you something else you can just do it. Or not, your choice. It's nice to let them know that's what you are going to do if you do.

 

[Unit74]

I know I's late to the party, but this was a pretty simple explanation for a simpleton like me to understand.