Are fairings part of Airworthiness?

To me, it seems the flight school is trying to send you a message, and it has nothing to do with the airworthy-ness of your plane. Personally, as a student many years ago, I probably would meet with them as you are...but now, as a 1000 hr pilot/owner? No effing way!
 
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While you have the paper copies of your logs, I would get the electronic ones back from them before getting the hell out of there.
 
4RNB said:
Someone tried telling me today that folks thought my fairings were not airworthy due to cracks. Any truth to this? Not an issue at 10/20 annual or last months pre buy.
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Is the plane supersonic?
 
Rcmutz said:
While you have the paper copies of your logs, I would get the electronic ones back from them before getting the hell out of there.
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How does that work exactly?
 
Rcmutz said:
While you have the paper copies of your logs, I would get the electronic ones back from them before getting the hell out of there.
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Thanks, maybe I was not accurate. I emailed them the logs, they are not really electronic
 
Maintenance Entries go in Maintenance Records; not necessarily Logbooks.

What happens if someone puts a &$#$ Entry in Digital Logs?

Is it different than someone writing on paper?
 
If it separates from aircraft in flight and dents the hood on your car was it airworthy.
 
Salty said:
It's not up to a school or a CFI to determine if your plane is airworthy. It's up to your IA. If your IA says it's airworthy, keep looking for a CFI that's not a douche. There are also other DPE's, even if you have to travel to get to them.
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Wrong, it is up to you, as a pilot, to determine if your plane is airworthy. Even if an IA says it is not airworthy, as long as it is in annual, the pilot determines if it is still airworthy. Right? I think this is the case.
But yes, the CFI and the school are being douches.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Wrong, it is up to you, as a pilot, to determine if your plane is airworthy. Even if an IA says it is not airworthy, as long as it is in annual, the pilot determines if it is still airworthy.
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This is the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen. While a pilot is responsible to make sure he doesn't fly an unairworthy aircraft, he doesn't have the power to decree things airworthy when they are not. If an IA says it's not airworthy NOW, it doesn't matter that six months ago it was determined airworthy at an annual. While it's possible that an A&P can make a mistake in making that determination, they almost always know better than a non-mechanic pilot. When the FAA or the insurance company comes to make a determination that you flew a plane that someone else determined not to be airworthy, you are going to be in a world of hurt. I can tell you a few stories along that line.
 
Tom-D said:
FAR part 39..
who determines if a AD applies?
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I just read part 39 and I see no mention of the word "pilot" or "AP/IA". So I don't know exactly. Tell me your interpretation please. I only see the words "anyone" and "operator" mentioned.
 
What is the make/model of the plane and what training are you looking to obtain?
 
flyingron said:
This is the biggest bunch of nonsense I've ever seen. While a pilot is responsible to make sure he doesn't fly an unairworthy aircraft, he doesn't have the power to decree things airworthy when they are not. If an IA says it's not airworthy NOW, it doesn't matter that six months ago it was determined airworthy at an annual. While it's possible that an A&P can make a mistake in making that determination, they almost always know better than a non-mechanic pilot. When the FAA or the insurance company comes to make a determination that you flew a plane that someone else determined not to be airworthy, you are going to be in a world of hurt. I can tell you a few stories along that line.
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But is is not also listed in the FARs that the Pilot in Command is the ultimate authority of determining airworthiness before each flight? And have there not been cases like this where some AP says an airplane is not airworthy, when they are incorrect? In that case, the pilot is free to make their own interpretation and fly the plane to another AP for a second opinion if they wish.

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

I am not saying that it is smart for every PIC to do this all the time, but it is sometimes used when an unscrupulous school, AP, or instructor is trying to ground a plane for no good reason.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I just read part 39 and I see no mention of the word "pilot" or "AP/IA". So I don't know exactly. Tell me your interpretation please. I only see the words "anyone" and "operator" mentioned.
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Have you read an AD, The FAA tells you which ADs apply
 
flyingron said:
If an IA says it's not airworthy NOW,
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When a IA does that, they best insure that they can document the why.
The annual S/O is proof that the A/C was airworthy. Then it becomes a Pizzing Contest of who said what.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
But is is not also listed in the FARs that the Pilot in Command is the ultimate authority of determining airworthiness before each flight? And have there not been cases like this where some AP says an airplane is not airworthy, when they are incorrect? In that case, the pilot is free to make their own interpretation and fly the plane to another AP for a second opinion if they wish.

§ 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an airworthy condition.

(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

I am not saying that it is smart for every PIC to do this all the time, but it is sometimes used when an unscrupulous school, AP, or instructor is trying to ground a plane for no good reason.
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"Airworthy" and "safe to fly" are not the same.
 
Salty said:
It's not up to a school or a CFI to determine if your plane is airworthy. It's up to your IA. If your IA says it's airworthy, keep looking for a CFI that's not a douche. There are also other DPE's, even if you have to travel to get to them.
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I could care less what his IA says. If the condition of the plane doesn’t meet my standards I am not flying in it.
 
Things to ponder?
when a A&P says this aircraft is unairworthy aren't they says it isn't safe to fly.

in that content Airworthy has another meaning.
Airworthy is simply a paper work thing. Safe to fly is safety thing.
 
Clip4 said:
I could care less what his IA says. If the condition of the plane doesn’t meet my standards I am not flying in it.
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well that will get your ticket yanked too. Who are you to dictate safety standards?
 
Clip4 said:
I could care less what his IA says. If the condition of the plane doesn’t meet my standards I am not flying in it.
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It is every mans right to be a douche. Not to say you are, but these guys sure sound like it.

and yeah, yet again we aren’t going to do business with each other. No shock.
 
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Salty said:
It is every mans right to be a douche. Not to say you are, but these guys sure sound like it.

and yeah, yet again we aren’t going to do business with each other. No shock.
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If / when you become a CFI, I hope you don’t learn the hard way about the need for well maintained airplanes. What you may find an minor discrepancy can be catastrophic to a student.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
But is is not also listed in the FARs that the Pilot in Command is the ultimate authority of determining airworthiness before each flight?
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The FARs state the owner is responsible for Airwothiness not the PIC. The PIC is only responsible for a safe condition prior to flight. No one can simple walk up to an aircraft and declare it unworthy without the owners knowledge to include the FAA in some cases.
 
Check the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) for your aircraft. I’m new on this site. Otherwise I could post a photo.
If they are cracked, replace them. If you want to remove them, that is another situation.
 
ARTRR said:
Check the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) for your aircraft. I’m new on this site. Otherwise I could post a photo.
If they are cracked, replace them. If you want to remove them, that is another situation.
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What makes you think he has a MEL for his plane? There isn’t even a model specific MMEL for a 172. There is a generic single engine MMEL but to use it as a MEL one would have to tailor it to their aircraft and apply for a LOA from the FSDO. Much simpler to just operate under 91.213(d).
 
ARTRR said:
Check the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) for your aircraft.
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As mentioned, few SE piston aircraft have approved MELs. Perhaps you meant the equipment list or kinds of ops list.
ARTRR said:
If they are cracked, replace them.
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FYI: As posted earlier, not all cracks require replacement.
 
4RNB said:
October 2020.
Prebuy was December
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Your plane is out of annual.
A prebuy is not a annual.
I would not fly it or in it until it is in annual.
Have the school mechanic preform the annual.
Was is it out of annual?

Pretty sure I see unapproved repairs on those fairings?

Personally I would have gotten my PPL first in a school plane and then bought my own plane after I got my PPL.
Plenty to learn just getting your PPL without worrying/maintaining your own plane.

How do you move around/handle your own plane without a PPL?

Good luck...

I earned my PPL in a school plane, then started instrument training in a school plane. Then finished instrument in my own plane. My plane was in annual and all that was required was to add the instructor to my insurance policy which did not cost any more, just a phone call to my agency.
 
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4RNB said:
I'd left what ARROW documents I knew in the plane, brought home logs and "the notebook" CFI calls me last night, said things came up and they did not fly. Said equipment list needed to be in the plane, you know "the notebook".
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Is the "notebook" the POH?
 
Gary Ward said:
Your plane is out of annual.
A prebuy is not a annual.
I would not fly it or in it until it is in annual.
Have the school mechanic preform the annual.
Was is it out of annual?
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Most of this discussion, and the original post, is from January 2021.

Let's hope the OP has resolved his issues by now.
 
I'd burn that bridge hard and permanently. Only guys allowed to criticize my airplane all have A&P's. Anyone else can pound sand, my airplane is the bestest one 'cause it's mine. Damn DAR doesn't like it he can stick it where the sun don't shine.
 
steingar said:
I'd burn that bridge hard and permanently. Only guys allowed to criticize my airplane all have A&P's. Anyone else can pound sand, my airplane is the bestest one 'cause it's mine. Damn DAR doesn't like it he can stick it where the sun don't shine.
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Hmmm, every DAR that I know are also A&P Mechanics. Or did you mean something other than Designated Airworthiness Representative?

I will add that I do respect your pride in aircraft ownership. :)
 
SkyDog58 said:
Hmmm, every DAR that I know are also A&P Mechanics. Or did you mean something other than Designated Airworthiness Representative?
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My bad, I was thinking DPE. OP said it was a CFI dissed his bird. CFI can go do unmentionable things to himself if he wants to criticize my aircraft. Lets see if his is any better.

SkyDog58 said:
I will add that I do respect your pride in aircraft ownership. :)
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Thank you. I do my best.
 
I know of DPEs that have cancelled Flight Tests because the W& B did not agree with the aircraft.

My preference is to make up using “Fairing ON” and “ Fairings OFF” versions.

Weight exceeds negligible.
 
About an A&P/Inspection Authorization-
Makes a safety and airworthiness determination only after an inspection(annual).
signs off 337s
pretty much that is it.

The IA does NOT have the power to examine an aircraft and declare it unairworthy anymore than Joe Poop the rag man.
READ Part 43.11.
43.11(a)(5)
The official wording: "I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with(insert type) inspection and a list of discrepancies and unworthy items dated (date) has been provided for the aircraft owner or operator"

Any A&P may address the items listed. The aircraft has not been called unairworthy The owner operator may address items permitted by Part 43 Appendix A(c) Preventative Maintenance.

Given the aircraft should have the unairworthy items attended to before flight, it is up to the owner/operator. A&P/IAs are not gods.
 
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rotormatic1 said:
Airworthy...

https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.14,Ch3,Sec4
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I am not sure the point here. Obviously the pilot had a difference of opinion. How did the FAA get involved?
An aircraft with a fresh annual can still be unairworthy. If the pilot has a problem and the FAA finds out it was unairworthy, the pilot will be cited. Low hanging fruit. This has nothing to do with OPs post.

In my opinion the school was just jerking him around rather than telling him they dont teach in owner aircraft. Wether airworthy or not a matter of opinion up to the PIC right or wrong.
 
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