172 Crash near KFWN (Sussex County)

Mikey B said:
I only watched part of the video, and with the sound off (arguably the least painful way to watch Gryder), so he may have addressed this, but as a one-time skydiver I have to ask WHAT KIND OF IDIOT JUMPS WITHOUT A HELMET?!
Click to expand...
Perhaps the guy who rode his motorcycle to the airport, sans helmet. Freedom!
 
Mikey B said:
I only watched part of the video, and with the sound off (arguably the least painful way to watch Gryder), so he may have addressed this, but as a one-time skydiver I have to ask WHAT KIND OF IDIOT JUMPS WITHOUT A HELMET?!
Click to expand...

What would you put a helmet on an empty Tupperware bowl?
 
Mikey B said:
I only watched part of the video, and with the sound off (arguably the least painful way to watch Gryder), so he may have addressed this, but as a one-time skydiver I have to ask WHAT KIND OF IDIOT JUMPS WITHOUT A HELMET?!
Click to expand...

Somebody that doesn't care, for whatever reason.
 
N444MD said:
Look, whatever went to hell in a handbag, no experienced pilot is going to be sitting on the mike calling 'mayday' instead of trying every trick in to the book to recover the plane.
Click to expand...

I don’t know, man, I’ve seen a lot of accidents where you swear the PIC was giving an Oscars acceptance speech. Some people do nothing BUT talk on the radio in an emergency.
 
Looks like preliminary report is up. Doesn't shed much light on the accident yet:

On November 11, 2021, about 1048 eastern standard time, a Cessna 172S, N90559, was
destroyed when it was involved in an accident near Branchville, New Jersey. The flight
instructor and a private pilot receiving instruction were fatally injured. The airplane was
operated as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 instructional flight.
Preliminary flight track data was obtained from OpsVue, a commercially available web-based
product that geo-reference’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) data sources. Review of
the flight track data revealed the airplane departed from Essex County Airport (CDW),
Caldwell, New Jersey about 1030 and flew predominately in a northwesterly direction as it
climbed. The airplane reached an altitude of about 6,400 ft mean sea level, before entering a
steep descending left turn that continued until the flight track data was lost.
The airplane came to rest oriented on a magnetic heading of 330° in a wooded area. All major
components of the airplane were located at the accident site. The fuselage from the firewall to
the empennage was crushed and impact damaged. The instrument panel and cockpit were
destroyed by impact forces. Both wings remained partially attached to the fuselage, and the
ailerons and flaps were impact damaged. Flight control cable continuity was observed from the
primary flight control surfaces to the cockpit controls. The horizontal stabilizers and vertical
stabilizer remained attached to the empennage but displayed damage consistent with impact.
The left and right elevators remained partially attached to their respective horizontal stabilizers
and the rudder remained attached to the vertical stabilizer, all displayed impact damage.
Initial examination of the engine did not reveal any preimpact mechanical malfunctions or
failures that would have precluded normal operation. The propeller remained attached to the
engine crankshaft flange and displayed chordwise scoring and aft bending. Several trees and
tree branches near the accident site exhibited fresh cuts consistent with propeller strikes.
The airplane was recovered and retained for further examination.
 

Attachments

  • Report_ERA22FA058_104237_12_2_2021 5_56_28 PM.pdf
    105.2 KB · Views: 9
Does somewhat rule out in-flight structural failure. At least nothing obvious fell off the plane in flight.

Interesting that the engine was running. In some common aerobatic aircraft, engine power may prevent spin recovery by flattening the spin. Emergency spin recovery training usually emphasizes verifying throttle completely off. But a C172? Geez, that is so hard to spin and so easy to recover. Maybe if the CG was way out of limits to the rear, but hard to see how that would be physically possible with rear seats empty.
 
They don't say at what attitude the "flight track data was lost". From flightradar24 and flightaware it looked like it was lost almost immediately. It sounds like they have more data than that, but not clear how much more.

How long does it usually take for next step (weeks, months, year) ?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Interesting that the engine was running. In some common aerobatic aircraft, engine power may prevent spin recovery by flattening the spin. Emergency spin recovery training usually emphasizes verifying throttle completely off. But a C172? Geez, that is so hard to spin and so easy to recover. Maybe if the CG was way out of limits to the rear, but hard to see how that would be physically possible with rear seats empty.
Click to expand...

Is it a given that the engine was running? If there was no engine breakage, on or off, the prop might have been windmilling from the high speed “fall” out of the sky, though that could/would need the nose to be pointed into the relative wind (“ahead” and mostly pointed down)?
 
Vadim said:
They don't say at what attitude the "flight track data was lost". From flightradar24 and flightaware it looked like it was lost almost immediately. It sounds like they have more data than that, but not clear how much more.

How long does it usually take for next step (weeks, months, year) ?
Click to expand...
NTSB usually says 12 to 18 months to complete an investigation...
 
The preliminary info that we have at this point, is very limited. So it’s hard to try to figure out what happened.
A 172 is so docile, WHEN you can get it to spin, and recovery is extremely easy on that aircraft. In fact, very often a 172 will nearly correct itself out of a spin! I’d be interested in knowing more about the pilots experience, and more about the schools training at this preliminary stage.
Is it a good school? Competent instructors that really train students to fly? Of more one of those schools where aspiring pilots basically “buy” their certificate?
I’m not at this point suggesting that’s the case, but sadly, most of us pilots that have been around a while, have known of many schools that push students through quickly. Especially students with large bank accounts.
Where other flight schools actually take the time, and demand you’re up to speed before trying to simply progress quickly through certificate and ratings... I have no knowledge of this schools training...
 
mryan75 said:
I don’t know, man, I’ve seen a lot of accidents where you swear the PIC was giving an Oscars acceptance speech. Some people do nothing BUT talk on the radio in an emergency.
Click to expand...
Exactly... Calling “Mayday” is the last thing any experienced, competent pilot is going to do. Number one? Fly the aircraft.
It seems these days that I see and hear new, young pilots all the time, talking about how “quickly” an emergency should be declared, or a “Mayday” called out. Back when I learned to fly, (40 years ago), it was always stressed, that the last thing you do is get on the radio! As PIC, it’s your responsibility to fly the aircraft, and safely get it down. AND BTW, there’s little to nothing that controller who’s sipping his coffee at a radar screen can do for you, when your hard IFR, sweating bullets in turbulence, hand flying a light aircraft, or have an aircraft problem in the air. That’s your responsibility as PIC, not any controllers job. And controllers are not pilots...
 
Disagree. It depends on what's wrong, but I want to declare ASAP. I can fly the airplane with my thumb on the switch. I almost always get FF, and they will tag me up with an emergency code right away. If I lose altitude, that may not happen. At least someone will know where to look for the hole in the ground. In IMC, ATC might have tops reports indicating a climb could put you in VMC, or get you out of turbulence. ATC is a resource to be used. There is no benefit from great oratory, except perhaps to relieve the pilot's tension. But am I going to call? You bet, if at all possible.
 
LesGawlik said:
...except perhaps to relieve the pilot's tension...
Click to expand...
Speaking of which, I watch accident videos like this to learn, but frankly, I find the audio of a pilot's final communications exceptionally unsettling. The link I provided is the one that really got to me. You can hear the desperation in the pilot's voice and the apparent realization he would likely not survive. His final "keep talking to me" plea, to me, sounded less about requesting ATC assistance and more about wanting human contact.
 
MICHAEL MAHN said:
Speaking of which, I watch accident videos like this to learn, but frankly, I find the audio of a pilot's final communications exceptionally unsettling. The link I provided is the one that really got to me. You can hear the desperation in the pilot's voice and the apparent realization he would likely not survive. His final "keep talking to me" plea, to me, sounded less about requesting ATC assistance and more about wanting human contact.
Click to expand...

That's a tough one to watch. What I can't get my head around is what made him break off the first approach, twice at exactly the same spot both times. The approach looked perfect before he did that on both attempts. I know he said his GPS wasn't working but that doesn't explain the fact that the approach was perfect up to that point.
 
So, I just learned about this today, well, I had heard about the crash but didn't realize it was Tom Fisher. Tom was the guy who really taught me to fly nearly 10 years ago, I can't say enough about his excellence as a mentor and as a pilot.

A few years ago his school went part141 and his instructors and maintenance were all top notch. He is the second CFI I've had who has now been killed. The other was this: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2017/08/piper-pa-30-twin-comanche-n22hw-fatal.html

I gotta say, it's very spooky...
 
The video (item 13 on docket) from someone's ring camera is depressing to watch. You can see the plane spiraling pretty much straight down.
 
At 10:46:30, the airspeed began to decrease due to a power reduction from about 2,400 rpm to 1,300 rpm. Shortly before 1047, the airplane pitched nose up, reaching a maximum pitch attitude of about 37° at 10:47:04 as the airspeed slowed to 28 knots indicated.
Click to expand...
Looks like stall practice.

At 10:47:10, the airplane reached a left-wing-down bank angle of 102° and a nose-down pitch attitude of 79°. The G1000 recorded the airplane’s descent rate at over 8,000 ft/minute 3 seconds later.
Click to expand...
Not coordinated?

The recorded airplane data indicated that the pilot initiated a recovery attempt between 10:47:10 and 10:47:30. The pitch attitude increased to 32°, the rate of climb rose to over 2,000 ft/minute, and the airplane was wings-level for 20 seconds as power was increased to 2,400 rpm. However, airspeed only momentarily recovered at 10:47:16.
Click to expand...
Too aggressive during the recovery attempt?
 
Still doesn't explain how this could happen to two experienced pilots. A medical issue, with the pilot slumped against the controls?
 
Hengelo said:
I think just about everything will be considered; In my very limited experience I've never seen birds that high AGL.

Hopefully given the high profile of the pilots the NTSB will give this one the fine-toothed comb treatment and we'll get some answers.
Click to expand...
I distinctly remember a day when we hit a grasshopper that was very large at 7500 feet. It was weird because we I’ve actually could actually see it incoming like an asteroid in the movies.

I’ve seen several birds up high like that.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I distinctly remember a day when we hit a grasshopper that was very large at 7500 feet. It was weird because we I’ve actually could actually see it incoming like an asteroid in the movies.

I’ve seen several birds up high like that.
Click to expand...
A grasshopper at 7500 feet? Were you taking off from an airport elevation of 7499?
 
Conclusion says unrecovered spiral turn. But AHRS data sounds more like a spin. Bank angle of 102 and pitch angle of 79??

I am very familiar with spins, having done several hundred at least, but I am not familiar with spiral turns. Maybe someone who knows how the maneuver is currently taught could explain the difference in entry?

Specifically, why would you enter a spiral turn by stalling? Wouldn't you just cut power, trim to maneuvering speed, bank and pull?

To me it sounds like a failed spin recovery, possibly because they thought it was a spiral turn. A spiral turn with 79 degree down pitch angle is basically a vertical dive and would quickly exceed Vne.
 
Last edited:
Dana said:
Still doesn't explain how this could happen to two experienced pilots.
Click to expand...
I hate to say it, but in this instance experience may not equal competence. If the AHRS data is correct, they were basically flying aerobatics in a non-aerobatic aircraft.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top