Commercial cross country requirements

jsstevens

jsstevens

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jsstevens
I've got to knock out my commercial solo cross country requirements pretty soon.

As I read 14 CFR 61.129 (3) (iii) and (iv) I need a 2 hour day and a 2 hour night cross country that must consist of more than 100nm straight line distance from point of departure.

Also, according to 14 CFR 61.129 (4) (i) I need a cross country flight of not less than 300nm total distance with landings at three points one of which is more than 250nm straight line distance from point of departure.

Is there any reason I can't combine those in this way: 300nm day cross country with 3 points of landing. Wait for night fall, then fly back? (Not necessarily stopping at all the same points.)

John
 
The 2 hour XC flights are under the "training" heading. Meaning "with a CFI". The 300 nm XC is solo.
 
RussR said:
The 2 hour XC flights are under the "training" heading. Meaning "with a CFI". The 300 nm XC is solo.
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In that case I've done plenty of day cross countries. I'll need to knock out the night one.
 
jsstevens said:
In that case I've done plenty of day cross countries. I'll need to knock out the night one.
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again, the long xc is solo. The TWO other xc’s are dual, one day one night. but to put your logic to it, you could fly the 2 hour/100nm day xc, wait til night then fly back….with CFI.
 
dmspilot said:
Except for "solo flight training".
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Your students train themselves to fly solo - really?


(Solo) Flight training
Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.
 
Clip4 said:
(Solo) Flight training
Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.
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Adulterated quotes to support your argument, really? Do you think that's helping your case?

Screen Shot 2021-11-01 at 12.51.20 PM.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
People love that small inconsistency. I suspect it's jus a reference to the fact that student solos are under CFI signoffs.
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I don't "love" it, and it appears in other places, such as the commercial pilot requirements in Part 141, Appendix D.
 
eman1200 said:
again, the long xc is solo. The TWO other xc’s are dual, one day one night. but to put your logic to it, you could fly the 2 hour/100nm day xc, wait til night then fly back….with CFI.
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I don't know what the latest interpretation is, but solo means sole occupant, not the absence of an instructor. So, the commercial solo xc must be done by yourself with no passengers. This never made any sense to me. I suspect it was meant for those who get a commercial as their first certificate.
 
eman1200 said:
again, the long xc is solo. The TWO other xc’s are dual, one day one night. but to put your logic to it, you could fly the 2 hour/100nm day xc, wait til night then fly back….with CFI.
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I do this routinely. In fact, it's my preferred method. Get dinner and wait for dark.
 
midlifeflyer said:
People love that small inconsistency. I suspect it's jus a reference to the fact that student solos are under CFI signoffs.
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Just one of many inconsistencies within FAA documentation.

A few other examples…
“Sole manipulator of the flight controls” for currency…no major airline pilots are current.
“Flight controls” include radios under Part 135.
Under the ATP ACS, we can’t test/check preflight as a crew because it’s part of the flight portion of the checkride, and we can only test/check applicants together for the oral. But the pilot monitoring can fail the flight portion of the checkride while I’m checking the pilot flying.

We could probably start a whole nuther thread. ;)
 
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midlifeflyer said:
People love that small inconsistency. I suspect it's jus a reference to the fact that student solos are under CFI signoffs.
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It limits experience to only solo time under supervision of a CFI. If you jump in Uncle Bob’s 150 without an instructor and fly solo for 10 hours before a CFI signs you off for solo the time doesn’t count.
 
Clip4 said:
It limits experience to only solo time under supervision of a CFI. If you jump in Uncle Bob’s 150 without an instructor and fly solo for 10 hours before a CFI signs you off for solo the time doesn’t count.
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Funny how you can come up with an interpretation of something that you said doesn't exist.

Clip4: "there is no such thing as solo flight training"
Also Clip4: posts his interpretation of what the term solo flight training means
 
dmspilot said:
Funny how you can come up with an interpretation of something that you said doesn't exist.

Clip4: "there is no such thing as solo flight training"
Also Clip4: posts his interpretation of what the term solo flight training means
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There is no such thing as solo flight training. There is only solo flight experiance under CFI supervision.
 
sarangan said:
I don't know what the latest interpretation is, but solo means sole occupant, not the absence of an instructor. So, the commercial solo xc must be done by yourself with no passengers. This never made any sense to me. I suspect it was meant for those who get a commercial as their first certificate.
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It can also be done with an instructor on board not instructing.
 
Clip4 said:
There is no such thing as solo flight training. There is only solo flight experiance under CFI supervision.
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If there was no such thing, they couldn’t require it. And they require it using the exact term that you say doesn’t exist.
 
Lindberg said:
It can also be done with an instructor on board not instructing.
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And that was such an oddity that was introduced into the regulation, must be solo, unless you have an instructor on-board, who is not instructing. :facepalm:

That caveat was added for the puppy mills that were skipping single engine commercial and doing the commercial as multi only, but the insurance companies would not permit a non-multi rated pilot to fly solo in a multi-engine airplane.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And that was such an oddity that was introduced into the regulation, must be solo, unless you have an instructor on-board, who is not instructing. :facepalm:

That caveat was added for the puppy mills that were skipping single engine commercial and doing the commercial as multi only, but the insurance companies would not permit a non-multi rated pilot to fly solo in a multi-engine airplane.
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I thought it was that they were doing them in complex aircraft to cover the required complex time, but same issue.
 
Lindberg said:
I thought it was that they were doing them in complex aircraft to cover the required complex time, but same issue.
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I think you are mixing up two issues. Complex aircraft was always a part of the commercial ticket requirements, and a complex endorsement is not that difficult to accomplish during the training. But having a non-multi rated pilot is a multi-airplane as they are working on their multi is another problem. The change to the complex rules was to allow TAA (Technologically Advanced Aircraft) to substitute for complex aircraft, because there just aren't as many complex aircraft trainers being produced today.
 
midwestpa24 said:
And that was such an oddity that was introduced into the regulation, must be solo, unless you have an instructor on-board, who is not instructing. :facepalm:

That caveat was added for the puppy mills that were skipping single engine commercial and doing the commercial as multi only, but the insurance companies would not permit a non-multi rated pilot to fly solo in a multi-engine airplane.
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Not really. It is insurers who won't cover solo flight by someone not rated.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not really. It is insurers who won't cover solo flight by someone not rated.
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Did you read the rest of my sentence that you highlighted in bold? That is why the FAA removed the solo requirement for the commercial cross-country, to allow the instructor to ride along for insurance purposes, but not teach. :rolleyes:
 
midwestpa24 said:
Did you read the rest of my sentence that you highlighted in bold? That is why the FAA removed the solo requirement for the commercial cross-country, to allow the instructor to ride along for insurance purposes, but not teach. :rolleyes:
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Yes. I was just responding to the puppy mill comment. I don't think it had much to do with it.
 
The long X Country can be with a CFI.

I did my IFR X Country with my CFII over 350 NM with one leg over 250 NM, making 3 full stops.

I’m assuming this will qualify for the commercial requirement as well.
 
WDD said:
The long X Country can be with a CFI.

I did my IFR X Country with my CFII over 350 NM with one leg over 250 NM, making 3 full stops.

I’m assuming this will qualify for the commercial requirement as well.
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No. The IFR cross country is a dual flight which is required to be logged as training given. The commercial "long cross country" is a solo flight which permits the presence of a CFI, but no instruction is given. More importantly, for meeting the requirements for the certificate, it is not logged as dual. IOW, keeping it simple, the practical difference comes down to.
  • IFR cross country must be logged as dual.
  • Commercial "substitute cross country" must not be logged as dual.
Kind of difficult for the same flight to be both dual and not dual ;)
 
WDD said:
The long X Country can be with a CFI.

I did my IFR X Country with my CFII over 350 NM with one leg over 250 NM, making 3 full stops.

I’m assuming this will qualify for the commercial requirement as well.
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If you do the Commercial "solo" XC with a CFI on board but not instructing, you have to do the other Commercial "solo" requirements also with a CFI on board but not instructing (10 hours, 5 hours at night, all 10 night landings).
 
RussR said:
If you do the Commercial "solo" XC with a CFI on board but not instructing, you have to do the other Commercial "solo" requirements also with a CFI on board but not instructing (10 hours, 5 hours at night, all 10 night landings).
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Besides, if one can do it solo, I never quite figured out why one would want to have a passenger they have to pay.
 
RussR said:
If you do the Commercial "solo" XC with a CFI on board but not instructing, you have to do the other Commercial "solo" requirements also with a CFI on board but not instructing (10 hours, 5 hours at night, all 10 night landings).
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I had to look that one up. That does not make sense. Well it does make sense if one does ALL of his training in a plane that insurance requires that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No. The IFR cross country is a dual flight which is required to be logged as training given. The commercial "long cross country" is a solo flight which permits the presence of a CFI, but no instruction is given. More importantly, for meeting the requirements for the certificate, it is not logged as dual. IOW, keeping it simple, the practical difference comes down to.
  • IFR cross country must be logged as dual.
  • Commercial "substitute cross country" must not be logged as dual.
Kind of difficult for the same flight to be both dual and not dual ;)
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It’s Ok. I fly a Heisenberg. :)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Besides, if one can do it solo, I never quite figured out why one would want to have a passenger they have to pay.
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I've always agreed with that. Actually, I'll go one step further - if you CAN do it solo, you shouldn't be allowed to have someone along, whether they're helping or not, or just providing a security blanket for you.

Greg Bockelman said:
I had to look that one up. That does not make sense. Well it does make sense if one does ALL of his training in a plane that insurance requires that.
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It kind of makes sense to me. If you have to have someone along for insurance purposes, then of course they'd need to be along for all 10 hours. But if you're not required to have someone along for insurance purposes, then you need to make a choice - either all or nothing. And since I agree with Mark as quoted above, if you're not required to, you shouldn't. Mixing and matching doesn't seem to meet the intent of the "solo" requirement.
 
I'll bounce this off of a few DPE's and get their take. I read this:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph (a)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under § 61.127(b)(1) that include -

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and​

I don't see any language about what activity the CFI / CFII needs to be doing or not to be doing. Either way both are logging as PIC.

Not seeing a clear distinction that all 10 hours need to be either / or, but that specifically might be my bias.

I also understand that "solo" means no passengers in the airplane - which means when you took your spouse to the beach it can't count. If you only took your family dog it would. Which makes no sense, but ..........
 
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