Considering a different airplane

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Right Seater
Leslie is about to fully retire and we plan to fly more often. We love our Bonanza because we always try to squeeze as much distance in as possible in a limited time frame.
Florida to Alaska
Florida to Washington State,
Florida to Catalina Island, Great Lakes, etc.

But in a few months, we want to be able to jump in the plane any time and leave for a few days or weeks or lunch or whatever without thinking about $70ish per hour for fuel. $25 or $30/hour would be kinda nice since getting back before a specific deadline is no longer required all the time.

We only need two seats for about 380 pounds of people. Also need shoulder room.
Another 100 pounds of luggage should be enough, but we may want to get a couple of folding bicycles so more is better.
Speed is not essential, but we don't want a dog. At least 120 kts (we are spoiled).
And I'd like something that most A&Ps anywhere can probably work on and find parts for.

Oh, and IFR certified with decent avionics.

What should we be thinking about?

Edited around 7am on Oct 26, 21: For those just joining the thread, comments and opinions are still appreciated, but I have already decided to keep the Bo, so encouragement in that direction is no longer necessary.
 
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Honestly, I’d stick with what you have. It meets all your criteria except cost and most stuff closer to your cost is going to not meet your other missions. Something with fixed gear and a smaller engine like an archer or musketeer would meet a lot of your criteria, but isn’t really big enough to haul bikes in.

In this case, the answer is Bo imo. You can always pull the throttle back and lean.
 
Honestly, after reading the list of places you like to fly to/from, my first thought was, "oh, he's looking for something faster than the Bo, maybe like a Piper Meridian or something". Then I saw your list of requirements...

So you're looking for an airplane that burns 5-6 gph, does 120 knots, carries 380 pounds of people plus 100 pounds of bags, and has room for a couple of folding bicycles? (And presumably enough gas to get somewhere.)

Does such a plane exist?

The Sling TSI seems to come close, I have no direct experience with it though. Not sure about the baggage space. But it burns a little over 7 gph while well exceeding 120 knots.
 
No such thing exists. Anything that burns that little gas will be slow and you're rubbing shoulders. Unless we're going back to $3.50 gas.
 
This might come close, but won't carry the folding bikes, and won't fit the 'any mechanic' criteria:
Fly Risen En
One of the local pilots here built one, I think the first in the US. Pretty interesting machine.
Or, the small-engine Mooneys are a great bang for the buck, if you fit in them. Personally, I'd stick with the Bonanza, and make the economics work somehow.
 
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JOhnH said:
Leslie is about to fully retire and we plan to fly more often. We love our Bonanza because we always try to squeeze as much distance in as possible in a limited time frame.
Florida to Alaska
Florida to Washington State,
Florida to Catalina Island, Great Lakes, etc.

But in a few months, we want to be able to jump in the plane any time and leave for a few days or weeks or lunch or whatever without thinking about $70ish per hour for fuel. $25 or $30/hour would be kinda nice since getting back before a specific deadline is no longer required all the time.

We only need two seats for about 380 pounds of people. Also need shoulder room.
Another 100 pounds of luggage should be enough, but we may want to get a couple of folding bicycles so more is better.
Speed is not essential, but we don't want a dog. At least 120 kts (we are spoiled).
And I'd like something that most A&Ps anywhere can probably work on and find parts for.

Oh, and IFR certified with decent avionics.

What should we be thinking about?
Click to expand...
:idea:The Unicorn model UC2A. Wisecracking aside, I dunno, maybe something does exist.
 
JOhnH said:
Leslie is about to fully retire and we plan to fly more often. We love our Bonanza because we always try to squeeze as much distance in as possible in a limited time frame.
Florida to Alaska
Florida to Washington State,
Florida to Catalina Island, Great Lakes, etc.

But in a few months, we want to be able to jump in the plane any time and leave for a few days or weeks or lunch or whatever without thinking about $70ish per hour for fuel. $25 or $30/hour would be kinda nice since getting back before a specific deadline is no longer required all the time.

We only need two seats for about 380 pounds of people. Also need shoulder room.
Another 100 pounds of luggage should be enough, but we may want to get a couple of folding bicycles so more is better.
Speed is not essential, but we don't want a dog. At least 120 kts (we are spoiled).
And I'd like something that most A&Ps anywhere can probably work on and find parts for.

Oh, and IFR certified with decent avionics.

What should we be thinking about?
Click to expand...
I think the closest you'd get is a Pipipstrel motorglider... like the Sinus, but it's about 5 KTS too slow.

https://www.pipistrel-usa.com/sinus/#technical_data
 
Thanks for the feedback guys. It's not often I like to have my ideas trashed, but this is one of them.

We know and love the Bo. It is fast and reliable. It is just a little tough to digest that $200 fuel bill every time we want to get a$100 hamburger. We spent over $2,000 last month on our trip to six New England states. But it would have taken many more hours in a slower plane.
 
Why not a Piper Archer? Can cruise at your 120 KTS target. Room for folding bikes. Pretty basic maintenance and parts availability. Should hit your $$ target as well. I plan for 9 gph in mine.
 
Maybe a Cheetah. 120 kts and fold the back seat down to hold the bikes. But honestly that's a lot of effort to save ~3-4 gal per hour. Plus you'll fly longer and thus burn fuel for a longer time. The actual savings for any given leg will therefore be less.
 
unsafervguy said:
easy, RV-6, RV-7 and the RV-9
Click to expand...
Seriously look at this.
Your mission is the same as mine.
Me and my wife, 100lbs of baggage, up to 46gal fuel (although I rarely use the extended tanks), 155KTAS, 8.5gph.
We're in the middle of the country, and have flown to both coasts, North, and South.
You might want to sit in one to check out the shoulder room, but the RV-9 should be as wide as the Bo.
The 9 is a great cross-country machine.
The 6 and 7 are great if you want to do the occasional roll!
 
Gamijectors, LOP, 55% power and keep the bo. No direct experience with the bonanza, but my lance will fly 120 knots on 9-10gph. I assume the slipperier bonanza could beat that. Bonus is you retain the ability to go faster and carry more people if you want to.
 
How about RV 14. 175 knots at 10gals around. And the most room of all the 2 place RVs.
 
JOhnH said:
Leslie is about to fully retire and we plan to fly more often. We love our Bonanza because we always try to squeeze as much distance in as possible in a limited time frame.
Florida to Alaska
Florida to Washington State,
Florida to Catalina Island, Great Lakes, etc.

But in a few months, we want to be able to jump in the plane any time and leave for a few days or weeks or lunch or whatever without thinking about $70ish per hour for fuel. $25 or $30/hour would be kinda nice since getting back before a specific deadline is no longer required all the time.

We only need two seats for about 380 pounds of people. Also need shoulder room.
Another 100 pounds of luggage should be enough, but we may want to get a couple of folding bicycles so more is better.
Speed is not essential, but we don't want a dog. At least 120 kts (we are spoiled).
And I'd like something that most A&Ps anywhere can probably work on and find parts for.

Oh, and IFR certified with decent avionics.

What should we be thinking about?
Click to expand...

Holy heck how long does it take you Miami to Catalina and how many stops?
 
JOhnH said:
Leslie is about to fully retire and we plan to fly more often. We love our Bonanza because we always try to squeeze as much distance in as possible in a limited time frame.
Florida to Alaska
Florida to Washington State,
Florida to Catalina Island, Great Lakes, etc.

But in a few months, we want to be able to jump in the plane any time and leave for a few days or weeks or lunch or whatever without thinking about $70ish per hour for fuel. $25 or $30/hour would be kinda nice since getting back before a specific deadline is no longer required all the time.

We only need two seats for about 380 pounds of people. Also need shoulder room.
Another 100 pounds of luggage should be enough, but we may want to get a couple of folding bicycles so more is better.
Speed is not essential, but we don't want a dog. At least 120 kts (we are spoiled).
And I'd like something that most A&Ps anywhere can probably work on and find parts for.

Oh, and IFR certified with decent avionics.

What should we be thinking about?
Click to expand...

If you want to see $25-$30 per hour for fuel that drastically reduces your options and takes away A LOT of the benefits you have with your current aircraft. That being said, A Cardinal FG or RG might suit your needs. They are quite a bit wider than a 172 inside and will get you closer to your fuel goals. I've heard of cruise fuel burn around 7.5 gph if you don't push the cruise speed too hard and 120 knots shouldn't be a problem. If you need storage space you could probably remove a rear set, but the CG is already pretty far forward so removing any rear seat weight might be an issue.
 
If you do start looking at RV's, do the math and compare them to the typical Bo flight in MPG.

I simplify / approximate my -6a performance to non-aviators: "I can do 200 mph at 22 mpg and travel a straight line from A to B."
 
Wouldnt getting a new plane eat into the fuel budget with the new plane maintenance? The first few annuals might blow out any fuel savings you are trying to get.
 
Salty said:
Honestly, I’d stick with what you have. It meets all your criteria except cost and most stuff closer to your cost is going to not meet your other missions. Something with fixed gear and a smaller engine like an archer or musketeer would meet a lot of your criteria, but isn’t really big enough to haul bikes in.

In this case, the answer is Bo imo. You can always pull the throttle back and lean.
Click to expand...


The Musketeer could fit the bikes with the back seat removed, but it won’t quite do his 120 knots. My B23 has been truing out around 117 or 118.

A Beech Sierra (essentially a Musketeer/Sundowner with retractable gear) might work. Max cruise is around 140 KTAS, but if throttled back to 120 it might come close to his fuel burn requirements. Plenty of luggage capacity and with the back seat out bikes could fit. Fuel injected 200hp Lycoming 360, should have good reliability. Roomy cockpit for long trips.
 
A plane that goes half as fast on half the fuel still burns the same amount of fuel. As usual, the answer is "bonanza".
 
The challenge is, as always, this: while you can dramatically reduce your fuel consumption in a Bonanza by throttling back, flying slower and aggressively leaning, it is so very difficult to fly slowly, when you know that fast is right there, at your fingertips.

Unless you can explicitly avoid a fuel stop by slowing down, that is.

And, don’t mind peeing in a bag/bottle.
 
Sounds like the OP wants a Skyhawk. Burn less gas, take bicycles and lots of stuff. Me, I'd keep the Bo and throttle back, but that's just me.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like the OP wants a Skyhawk. Burn less gas, take bicycles and lots of stuff. Me, I'd keep the Bo and throttle back, but that's just me.
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That's pretty much what I've decided to do; except for the throttling back part. ;)
If the speed is there, I'm going to use it. That would be like asking you to throttle back on your motorcycle and ride like a little old lady.
 
JOhnH said:
That's pretty much what I've decided to do; except for the throttling back part. ;)
If the speed is there, I'm going to use it. That would be like asking you to throttle back on your motorcycle and ride like a little old lady.
Click to expand...
My bike is fast, and I ride fast!
 
Have to go along with everyone else, that you've got a good plane. I think it would be a long time, if ever, to recover any costs, and you'd have to change your mission, too. Plus it doesn't seem like a great time to buy right now anyway.

If you're looking to mix things up a bit, maybe consider something to spruce up the current plane? Upgrade interior, or avionics, maybe new lights, new paint? Or if it's got that funny tail, consider putting a normal one on? (Sorry, couldn't resist the last.)
 
Do you have to pay capital gains on the gains you make selling the bo? You’ll definitely have to pay sales tax on the new plane. Given that you’ll definitely have to pay the later and possibly the former and that taxes are the ultimate waste of money, for how long and how much slower do you really want to go just to break even on taxes alone? I bet it’s a looooong time.
 
Pull the throttle back to 120 knotts.

RV 14 would be great if you could ever find one for sale.
 
John, don’t forget: fly 172 speeds, burn 172 gas (or less).
 
A diesel DA40 would probably check all your boxes except for mechanic familiarity and possibly parts availability.
 
Look at a 68 Cardinal with the 0-320. I put my bike in mine several times. My bike had a "BIkeMotor" which mad the trip downtown easy. I burned about 6.5 gph and had the mogas STC.

And oh yeah the most shoulder room around
 
cgrab said:
Look at a 68 Cardinal with the 0-320. I put my bike in mine several times. My bike had a "BIkeMotor" which mad the trip downtown easy. I burned about 6.5 gph and had the mogas STC.

And oh yeah the most shoulder room around
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Cardinals are good planes. That might be my choice if I hadn't already been convinced my idea has little merit, thus I'm staying with the Bo.

AA5Bman said:
Do you have to pay capital gains on the gains you make selling the bo? You’ll definitely have to pay sales tax on the new plane. Given that you’ll definitely have to pay the later and possibly the former and that taxes are the ultimate waste of money, for how long and how much slower do you really want to go just to break even on taxes alone? I bet it’s a looooong time.
Click to expand...
Not real sure about capital gains, but as for sales tax, if you structure the transaction as a "trade" you only pay tax on the incremental cost. If I sell for $100k and buy for $110k, then I pay sales tax on the incremental $10k. If my new plane costs less than the old plane, there is no sales tax. The easiest way to arrange this, unless it is a direct trade with someone else, is to go through a broker. That is what I did when I traded up for my Bo. A Broker sold the my 172 to a 3rd party and located my Bo through another broker. The broker was able to write up one invoice to cover the sales price, the purchase price and show the net price of the transaction so I paid sales tax on the net. The broker also sold my 172 for more than I would have if I put it on the market and he found my Bo before it went on the advertised market and gave me his broker's discount since I paid him a commission on my sale and he got a commission from the seller of my Bonanza. A good honest broker is worth their weight in air planes. But a bad broker is worth their time in corroded ruddervators.
 
For just kicking around I think a Cherokee 180/Archer has great utility. Now isn’t a great time to shop though, better to keep what you have.

It’s like the hot housing market, easy to sell, harder to buy.
 
RussR said:
Honestly, after reading the list of places you like to fly to/from, my first thought was, "oh, he's looking for something faster than the Bo, maybe like a Piper Meridian or something". Then I saw your list of requirements...

So you're looking for an airplane that burns 5-6 gph, does 120 knots, carries 380 pounds of people plus 100 pounds of bags, and has room for a couple of folding bicycles? (And presumably enough gas to get somewhere.)

Does such a plane exist?

The Sling TSI seems to come close, I have no direct experience with it though. Not sure about the baggage space. But it burns a little over 7 gph while well exceeding 120 knots.
Click to expand...
The new Flight Design F2 certified version looks like it matches up with those specs. Available next year.
 
If you are set on getting rid of the Bo, an archer is a good choice.
 
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