Diamond Aircraft eDA40 All-Electric Aircraft

Tim - if the future world you plan out is as great as you think it is - fantastic.

If it isn’t competitive then keep working on it and get back to us when / if it works out.

What I ask is that it is better and not mandated because someone likes to play forge of empires.
 
Another question on electric planes - why?

GA burns enough fuel in a year equal to what is used by a single 787 during taxi. I exaggerate - but you get my drift.

Banning all GA fuel burning aircraft will have zero impact on anything except a politician’s re election campaign.

Just let me know when you have something better, cheaper, faster than what we have now.


Dont think a politician wouldn't kill GA to get reelected...they'd be happy to.
 
Why do you say that? What do you mean by "soon"? How fast were you flying? How much were you carrying?

140kts true, 72 gallons of fuel, two people and full of stuff in the baggage area and back seat full too. Next month I’ll be flying Reno, Nevada to Ft. Worth, Texas with one stop in New Mexico. It’s a one-day trip in my Dakota.
 
Not at all. If someone brings me something better - great! I won’t stand in their way. Why would you think I’d slow them down? But if they take my tax dollars and build something less capable then we are falling behind- not going forward.
Which of these battery powered planes use tax dollars for development? What's less capable? What are you comparing it to?

This is describing progress for progress' sake. Doesn't do anything to answer the question "why?" Why would this be progress?

There are a lot of things we haven’t done yet that we shouldn’t try to do. Why isn’t this one of them? We haven’t tried steam powered planes yet, why aren’t we working on that?
First, we have tried steam powered aircraft:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_aircraft

What good were Maxwell's equations when derived them in 1861/1862? Radio wasn't useful until 30 years later.
Most of PoA would fit into this story: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05091-3
 
140kts true, 72 gallons of fuel, two people and full of stuff in the baggage area and back seat full too. Next month I’ll be flying Reno, Nevada to Ft. Worth, Texas with one stop in New Mexico. It’s a one-day trip in my Dakota.
It will take longer to get a usable electric plane that meets your needs. I mostly fly a Cessna 150 for an hour or two at a time. An electric plane would be practical for my needs.
 
Is there any kind of developmental proof of 3 fold improvements every decade or so in energy density?

I'm getting so tired of this whole approach to the modern world "we're building a cool thing, we don't know how to power it, but some day someone will!" Why stop with airplanes, let's build teleporters and warp drives; they're theoretically possible - just need the technology to catch up


^that said, I like Diamond aircraft and their approach with the diesel engines, the DA62, DA50, etc., lend them credibility. But as has been stated before "up to 90 minutes" is not useful for general aviation outside of a niche market (training, coastal sightseeing tours, etc.)

There's a universal belief among proponents of the world's adaptation of battery supported utility generation and transportation there will soon be a magical gain in the energy density of batteries.

This belief has caused governments to require that utilities abandon thermal power generation, and vehicle manufacturers to transition to battery powered products, with looming deadlines in less then ten years.

The folly of this premature rush to untried and unreliable power generation and storage sources is being revealed right now, as the shutdown of thermal power generation and a dearth of wind currents across the North Sea and Europe has created a severe and dangerous shortage of electrical capacity.

As winter approaches, coal and natural gas supplies are at historical lows, and prices have increased fivefold. This is a preview of what will occur when reliance on wind and solar, backed by inadequate battery storage capabilities, replaces thermal power generation sources that are unaffected by the vageries of weather.

The anticipated wholesale adaptation of battery powered vehicles has critical weaknesses that are being ignored. A primary issue is how the quantity of raw materials needed to produce millions of batteries will be sourced. Many of the components are mined from the earth, and it will take years for those facilities to be designed, environmental studies done, and supply chains to be established.

There are political issues that must be resolved. Secondarily, there have been studies done that show demands on the electrical grid which will occur when the number of battery powered vehicles proliferate may result in widespread overload, outages, and failures. Upgrades and expansion of the grid will take many years to accomplish.

This headlong rush to the future, with serious questions about the wisdom of it being ignored, has dangers.
 
There's a universal belief among proponents of the world's adaptation of battery supported utility generation and transportation there will soon be a magical gain in the energy density of batteries.

This belief has caused governments to require that utilities abandon thermal power generation, and vehicle manufacturers to transition to battery powered products, with looming deadlines in less then ten years.

The folly of this premature rush to untried and unreliable power generation and storage sources is being revealed right now, as the shutdown of thermal power generation and a dearth of wind currents across the North Sea and Europe has created a severe and dangerous shortage of electrical capacity.

As winter approaches, coal and natural gas supplies are at historical lows, and prices have increased fivefold. This is a preview of what will occur when reliance on wind and solar, backed by inadequate battery storage capabilities, replaces thermal power generation sources that are unaffected by the vageries of weather.

The anticipated wholesale adaptation of battery powered vehicles has critical weaknesses that are being ignored. A primary issue is how the quantity of raw materials needed to produce millions of batteries will be sourced. Many of the components are mined from the earth, and it will take years for those facilities to be designed, environmental studies done, and supply chains to be established.

There are political issues that must be resolved. Secondarily, there have been studies done that show demands on the electrical grid which will occur when the number of battery powered vehicles proliferate may result in widespread overload, outages, and failures. Upgrades and expansion of the grid will take many years to accomplish.

This headlong rush to the future, with serious questions about the wisdom of it being ignored, has dangers.
Yes!!!!
 
There's a universal belief among proponents of the world's adaptation of battery supported utility generation and transportation there will soon be a magical gain in the energy density of batteries.
It won't be a "magical" gain. It will be based on science. You haven't seen the improvements in batteries in recent years? New cars go further on a charge, and recharge more quickly now.

You claimed the LiS batteries wouldn't work and they couldn't overcome the problems with them:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-3#post-2704576
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-2#post-2704061
Yet, they are for sale now-
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...0.7724857.normal_offer.d_title.41bf11e5B6sY99
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...0.7724857.normal_offer.d_title.41bf11e5B6sY99
https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...0.7724857.normal_offer.d_title.41bf11e5B6sY99
https://lyten.com/lyten-launches-lithium-sulfur-battery-platform/
This last one uses the graphene that you pooh-poohed in your earlier posts.

Do you really believe there haven't been improvements in batteries?

Research now is directed towards improving the lithium-sulfur batteries, using sodium instead of lithium, and much longer-term, using multivalent cations so that you can shuttle two (or more) electrons from each positive charge carrier.

This belief has caused governments to require that utilities abandon thermal power generation,...
Sorry, no causality here. Batteries need electricity. Global warming is the reason for going away from gas/coal electrical generation.

The anticipated wholesale adaptation of battery powered vehicles has critical weaknesses that are being ignored. A primary issue is how the quantity of raw materials needed to produce millions of batteries will be sourced. Many of the components are mined from the earth, and it will take years for those facilities to be designed, environmental studies done, and supply chains to be established.
The mines exist now, and they are looking to the oceans. Why do you think they are being ignored? And why do you think no one thought of this besides you?

There are political issues that must be resolved. Secondarily, there have been studies done that show demands on the electrical grid which will occur when the number of battery powered vehicles proliferate may result in widespread overload, outages, and failures. Upgrades and expansion of the grid will take many years to accomplish.
You know, electrical grid improvements is supposed to be in that infrastructure bill. Whether the bill is otherwise good or bad is beyond the scope of this board, but people have thought about it.

This headlong rush to the future, with serious questions about the wisdom of it being ignored, has dangers.
Again, why do you think they aren't being addressed? But you should look at what has happened with battery technology before making claims that there is no room for improvement.
 
Hydrogen should beat out batteries in aviation. Its energy density is 100x that of batteries. Aircraft performance is much more sensitive to weight than cross-section or length, so even if planes get bigger to hold more hydrogen, it wouldn't affect their performance as much as loading up with batteries. Additionally, hydrogen can be produced on-demand at airports. And you can refuel as rapidly as with avgas.

Even if alternative fuel never comes to be, I'd like to see someone develop a hybrid engine. Use avgas for cruise and add the electric for takeoff and for a few minutes of power if you have an engine failure.
 
Hydrogen should beat out batteries in aviation. Its energy density is 100x that of batteries. Aircraft performance is much more sensitive to weight than cross-section or length, so even if planes get bigger to hold more hydrogen, it wouldn't affect their performance as much as loading up with batteries. Additionally, hydrogen can be produced on-demand at airports. And you can refuel as rapidly as with avgas.

Even if alternative fuel never comes to be, I'd like to see someone develop a hybrid engine. Use avgas for cruise and add the electric for takeoff and for a few minutes of power if you have an engine failure.
Hydrogen is very light, but you don't get much range from it, even from liquid hydrogen. A liter of liquid hydrogen weighs very little, but you don't get very far when you need two molecules of hydrogen to react with each molecule of oxygen. As liquid hydrogen is a pain to handle, we will see it as a compressed gas with even less range. It's only advantage is that you can refuel quickly as you noted. Like batteries, hydrogen is just a storage technology from another source of energy. There's been some work at adsorbing hydrogen to improve the amount stored per unit volume, but they haven't yet come up with decent range. Your plane will be all tank and very little else. Maybe that will change, but I've seen little progress to date. Hydrogen has little mass, but you need a large volume of it to go anywhere.

As for hybrid engines, Diamond has flown such a plane:
https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/...flight-multi-engine-hybrid-electric-aircraft/
Here's another project: https://www.h3ps.eu/
 
Wow. I can buy two LiS 1700mAh batteries from China. That'll power the global battery revolution.
 
Wow. I can buy two LiS 1700mAh batteries from China. That'll power the global battery revolution.
Two from China, and bigger batteries for electric vehicles from the USA. Why are you dismissive of facts?
 
Two from China, and bigger batteries for electric vehicles from the USA. Why are you dismissive of facts?

Why are you dismissive of facts? Do you think I made up my statements about the looming crisis in Europe that's directly attributable to the abandonment of reliable electrical generation sources, coal, and natural gas? How are those people going to heat their homes? How will they pay for fuel and electricity that costs 500% more than it did eighteen months ago?

I won't bother refuting all of your comments, they simply ignore realities. The one about electrical infrastructure is gold. The Democrats are going to spend billions on the grid?

How will that work? First the legislation must be passed.

Coordination to get the money from Washington to states, then local governments, then committees to argue about spending the money. Identification of need, planning, engineering, environmental studies, eminent domain court battles for right of ways, union versus non-union contractors, the list goes on and on.

It will take years to solve. But those in Washington are waving their magic wand, saying that in 96 months, more than half of new cars sold will be electric, and the grid will be able to support them.

The houses in my subdivision acquire power from 13.2 kV overhead transmission lines. They feed 25 kVA transformers in alleys, one for every four houses. This and similar arrangements are a common method of providing residential power all across the country. They fail often, because the utility provider is operating them at 200% or more of their nominal capacity. And what will adding the charging of electric vehicles do to that situation? It's laughable.
 
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Why are you dismissive of facts? Do you think I made up my statements about the looming crisis in Europe that's directly attributable to the abandonment of reliable electrical generation sources, coal, and natural gas? How are those people going to heat their homes? How will they pay for fuel and electricity that costs 500% more than it did eighteen months ago?
I didn't even comment on it, as it had nothing to do with the practicalities of batteries. In any case, you mention heating; that is done with natural gas, and Europe hasn't moved away from gas heating. The problem seems to be the suppliers aren't passing the gas (so to speak) to Europe:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...isis-is-about-to-go-global-as-gas-prices-soar


I won't bother refuting all of your comments, they simply ignore realities. The one about electrical infrastructure is gold. The Democrats are going to spend billions on the grid?

How will that work? First the legislation must be passed.

Coordination to get the money from Washington to states, then local governments, then committees to argue about spending the money. Identification of need, planning, engineering, environmental studies, eminent domain court battles for right of ways, union versus non-union contractors, the list goes on and on.

It will take years to solve. But those in Washington are waving their magic wand, saying that in 96 months, more than half of new cars sold will be electric, and the grid will be able to support them.

The houses in my subdivision acquire power from 13.2 kV overhead transmission lines. They feed 25 kVA transformers in alleys, one for every four houses. This and similar arrangements are a common method of providing residential power all across the country. They fail often, because the utility provider is operating them at 200% or more of their nominal capacity. And what will adding the charging of electric vehicles do to that situation? It's laughable.
I merely stated that upgrading the electrical grid is in the infrastructure bill, and someone was thinking of the problem. I never said it would be easy or simple, merely that someone was thinking of it. And if it will take time, why not start now? Does the party that does it matter so much, since you took the trouble to identify one? So, your electric utility is running your transmission system 200% of their capacity? That seems the fault of your local utility and government, and isn't the case everywhere. You seem to be saying "It's too hard, it will take too long, so it's not worth the bother".

Two years ago, LIS batteries were in the lab and you said they wouldn't work:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-3#post-2704576
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-2#post-2704061
Yet they left the lab within 2 years. Your comments about your local electric utility might be valid, but perhaps you might avoid posting about changes in battery technology as it's clear you know little about it.
 
My comments in the first link said LiS batteries were immature technology, which you disputed. Now, two years later, they consist of a very minor portion of battery production. Who was wrong?

In the second link, I disputed that OXIS had a viable product, while you responded with their plans to build a plant in Brazil that would eventually produce millions of the cells. They were on the cusp of LiS technology, according to you. Remember?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-2#post-2704005

Go check the internet and see if that plant exists. Hint: it doesn't. OXIS has disappeared. They are in bankruptcy. From their website:

OXIS Energy Limited is in administration.
Simon Girling and Christopher Marsden were appointed Joint Administrators of the Company on 19 May 2021.


From Glassdoor:

OXIS Energy Jobs
There are no open jobs for this combination of filters, please try again.
 
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My comments in the first link said LiS batteries were immature technology, which you disputed. Now, two years later, they consist of a very minor portion of battery production. Who was wrong?

In the second link, I disputed that OXIS had a viable product, while you responded with their plans to build a plant in Brazil that would eventually produce millions of the cells. They were on the cusp of LiS technology, according to you. Remember?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-2#post-2704005

Go check the internet and see if that plant exists. Hint: it doesn't. OXIS has disappeared. They are in bankruptcy. From their website:

OXIS Energy Limited is in administration.
Simon Girling and Christopher Marsden were appointed Joint Administrators of the Company on 19 May 2021.


From Glassdoor:

OXIS Energy Jobs
There are no open jobs for this combination of filters, please try again.
But if we don’t keep trying we’ll never achieve it. We need to invest more.
 
My comments in the first link said LiS batteries were immature technology, which you disputed. Now, two years later, they consist of a very minor portion of battery production. Who was wrong?
Obviously, you were.

In the second link, I disputed that OXIS had a viable product, while you responded with their plans to build a plant in Brazil that would eventually produce millions of the cells. They were on the cusp of LiS technology, according to you. Remember?

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/those-monsters.117731/page-2#post-2704005

Go check the internet and see if that plant exists. Hint: it doesn't. OXIS has disappeared. They are in bankruptcy. From their website:

OXIS Energy Limited is in administration.
Simon Girling and Christopher Marsden were appointed Joint Administrators of the Company on 19 May 2021.


From Glassdoor:

OXIS Energy Jobs
There are no open jobs for this combination of filters, please try again.
They did have a viable product, and companies go out of business for many reasons. You know this. Maybe their product wasn't good enough. Or maybe they decided to jump to the next level of improvement instead of selling what they had. Or maybe they had trouble getting products sold, or delivering products due to the pandemic. Or they tried to sell to the wrong markets. I don't know, and you don't either. This is exactly how free enterprise is supposed to work.
If OXIS is "the furthest along towards commercialization" as you stated, the implications for Li S batteries and the industry as a whole are obvious.
Lyten is using the same technology. So are the Chinese.

The facts are plain, Li S battery technology has large hurdles to clear before it can become useful.
Those hurdles were cleared with the technology mentioned in my citations.
There has been very little progress in improving the Li-s life cycle, which the researcher acknowledges as a challenge.
The citations I posted to you then showed how they got around the problem.

Things take a long time to happen. I invented the algorithm used in this paper about 2 1/2 years before it was published or commercialized:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acscombsci.8b00187
It was a very simple bit of code that is done on a spreadsheet. Yet it took over 2 years to decide to add it to our software, and only 2 days after the decision to make it happen. Thinks sometimes take time to commercialize.
 
2K or more unique parts in a single ICE,

Wait, wut?

2,000 unique parts for 1 engine??? A master rebuild kit for a typical V8 4valve DOHC engine which replaces just about every moving part (and many that don't move) might be 3-400 unique parts. Total parts?

I don't care electric or gas. We are not going to end the world by burning fossil fuels. But unless a battery has the range of a 20 gallon fuel tank and can be recharged as quickly as a 20 gallon gas tank its a loser.
 
Wait, wut?

2,000 unique parts for 1 engine??? A master rebuild kit for a typical V8 4valve DOHC engine which replaces just about every moving part (and many that don't move) might be 3-400 unique parts. Total parts?

I don't care electric or gas. We are not going to end the world by burning fossil fuels. But unless a battery has the range of a 20 gallon fuel tank and can be recharged as quickly as a 20 gallon gas tank its a loser.
20 gallon tank in what? And for what purpose? A lot of people can drive to/from work and local shopping and simply recharge the car at night. Tesla sells a lot of cars.
 
20 gallon tank in what? And for what purpose? A lot of people can drive to/from work and local shopping and simply recharge the car at night. Tesla sells a lot of cars.
People rice airplanes to the local shopping? Tesla is making aircraft?
 
People rice airplanes to the local shopping? Tesla is making aircraft?
He didn't specify what sort of vehicle. 20 gallon is a fairly common car tank size. As the thread encompasses many things, I can interpret the comment as I please, since there were no qualifiers as to the vehicle he was thinking about.
 
Wait, wut?

2,000 unique parts for 1 engine??? A master rebuild kit for a typical V8 4valve DOHC engine which replaces just about every moving part (and many that don't move) might be 3-400 unique parts. Total parts?

I don't care electric or gas. We are not going to end the world by burning fossil fuels. But unless a battery has the range of a 20 gallon fuel tank and can be recharged as quickly as a 20 gallon gas tank its a loser.

Look at the second bullet point:
https://www.ameinfo.com/tech-and-mo...combustion-engine-vehicle-icev-electric-cars/

Or look at point 5.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sap/20...s-a-dead-man-walking-updated/?sh=62fcb560603f

Tim
 
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