Is a transponder required to fly under bravo airspace?

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Nick Kan

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cavsfan2016
Is a transponder required to fly under bravo airspace?
 
Purely from memory, I think the answer is “no.” With the significant exception for “but it is required if you are within the Mode C veil and not in a plane that was originally certified without an electrical system and forever remained that way, and by the way that happens to be most but not all of the airspace beneath class B shelves in this country.”
 
^^^ appears to be correct.
 
Tom-Flying said:
...how did Vegas get that bravo configuration and why didn’t they extend the veil?...
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Mode C veil is 30 miles. What do you mean "extend"? Lots of Bravo goes outside the 30 mile circle, SFO is another example.
 
Tom-Flying said:
You do realize that you can’t have a rule if there isn’t an exception!
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Sounds like someone is trying to invoke the long lost spirits of C'Ron, R&W, and the others who lived to orate on their knowledge of the FAR's, interpretation letters, and why no matter what, who was really correct.

roflmao
 
AggieMike88 said:
Sounds like someone is trying to invoke the long lost spirits of C'Ron, R&W, and the others who lived to orate on their knowledge of the FAR's, interpretation letters, and why no matter what, who was really correct.

roflmao
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That was actually just a joke. The emoji didn’t come through for some reason.
 
Here’s a fun one. That’s the LAX B and the ONT C. Don’t forget the within the lateral boundaries of a C above it’s ceiling rule.

upload_2021-10-9_5-57-22.png
 
A transponder is NOT required under the Class B but inside the Mode C veil, If, you are exempt because of the kind of plane you are flying.
" An aircraft that was not originally certificated with engine driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with a system installed may conduct operations within a Mode C veil provide the aircraft remains outside Class A, B, or C airspace".

Most of you guys only think about normal planes in which you are required to have a transponder within the veil.
 
champ driver said:
An aircraft that was not originally certificated with engine driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with a system installed
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Good to know the boys can fly their Wright Flyer without a transponder. :)
 
WDD said:
“C squared” Or “CC”. And who decided to call it “Veil”?
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It was Tom Johnson. Him and the other two members of the naming committee, Dick Smith and Harry Baker couldn’t agree on it. Tom wanted veil, Dick wanted cloak and Harry wanted shroud. So they did a single elimination tournament of rock, paper, scissors and Tom won.
 
luvflyin said:
It was Tom Johnson. Him and the other two members of the naming committee, Dick Smith and Harry Baker couldn’t agree on it. Tom wanted veil, Dick wanted cloak and Harry wanted shroud. So they did a single elimination tournament of rock, paper, scissors and Tom won.
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Single elimination? That's rough
 
There is no regulation requirement for having a transponder with mode C or ADS-B Out under Class B or Class C airspace. The requirement that causes one to need a transponder with mode C or ADS-B Out is related to the Mode C 30 NM veil that surrounds class B airports.
 
91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, and except as provided in paragraph (e)(1) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder...
The requirements of this paragraph (b) apply to -

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted -

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider -

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

...

(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
91.215 (b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, and except as provided in paragraph (e)(1) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder...
The requirements of this paragraph (b) apply to -

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted -

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or glider -

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

...

(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.
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If I'm reading that right, an airplane using the it ain't got 'juice' exceptions have to be below 2500 AGL. And if within 10 miles of the airport, below 1200 AGL, which could a thing because many B Surface Areas are less than 10 miles wide. But I ain't betting a whole paycheck I'm reading it right.
 
luvflyin said:
If I'm reading that right, an airplane using the it ain't got 'juice' exceptions have to be below 2500 AGL. And if within 10 miles of the airport, below 1200 AGL, which could a thing because many B Surface Areas are less than 10 miles wide. But I ain't betting a whole paycheck I'm reading it right.
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You're not reading it right.
 
Lindberg said:
Reread sub (b)(5).
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Here's what I get. (1) says ya gotta have it in A, B and C. (2) says ya gotta have it in the Veil below 10,000. (3) says juiceless planes can do it in the Veil if they stay outta the B or C and below 10,000 or the top of said B or C if the top is lower than 10,000. (4) says ya can't be above the top of B or C, juice or no juice. (5) starts with all aircraft, leave it there for a minute and get to the juiceless exception later. (i), ya gotta have it everywhere above 10,000 MSL except up in the big mountains that stick up above 10,000 then your ok without mode C if you stay below 2500 AGL. (ii) ya gotta have it within 10 miles of the airport except if you're below 1200 AGL and stay outta the Surface Area. Back to (5), "All aircraft except any aircraft...", juiceless planes. So it's saying that (5) (i) and (ii) does not apply to juiceless planes. I think I'm getting it now. How's that? I'm still not betting money on it.
 
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