Altitude your discretion

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JOhnH

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I was flying with a friend the other day in marginal VFR weather. We were using flight following, but there was a layer of clouds at our altitude (5500). The friend requested to descend to avoid clouds. Controller said "Altitude your discretion", so he began his descent. When we got to around 4,000 the cloud layer broke but there were clouds under us, so he stayed there. I told him "you can't stay at an IFR altitude" and he reminded me that the controller said altitude was his discretion. Now I haven't taken flight training since 1973, but this isn't my interpretation of discretion. Am I wrong?
 
4000 what? If he was 4000MSL but 3000AGL, it would be ok. Otherwise, yes, "while complying with 91.159" is implied with "altitude your discretion".
 
If you are talking to approach the altitude rule does not apply. The VFR cruising altitudes are for separation, the controllers are providing that separation.
 
There’s rules and there’s good sense.
There’s “have to” and “makes sense to”.
 
You still need to honor East-West VFR altitudes. He is just letting you know you can change if needed.
 
Joe_B1 said:
If you are talking to approach the altitude rule does not apply. The VFR cruising altitudes are for separation, the controllers are providing that separation.
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No, they (VFR flight following) are providing traffic advisories on an as-available basis. Only IFR gets true traffic separation.
 
texasclouds said:
No, they (VFR flight following) are providing traffic advisories on an as-available basis. Only IFR gets true traffic separation.
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I disagree, if they can't provide the service, they will say "Radar service terminated, squawk 1200, frequency change aproved". If they give you an altitude or heading, they are providing separation. Of course, you still are responsible for remaining in VFR conditions and if you can't comply with the controllers direction, say "unable" .
 
Few years ago during a VFR departure using 18 at KMYR the controller assigned us 4000' and kept us pointed towards the big ocean for a couple of minutes for traffic. We were in the class Charlie so whatever the controller wanted is what they got.

Outside the Charlie I believe "VFR altitude at your discretion" means exactly that. I'd choose a proper VRF altitude. If the controller wants something else they will let you know or give you the old heave-ho ... "Flight following cancelled, squawk VFR." :D
 
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Daleandee said:
Few years ago during a VFR departure using 18 at KMYR the controller assigned us 4000' and kept us pointed towards the big ocean for a couple of minutes for traffic. We were in the class Charlie so whatever the controller wanted is what they got.

Outside the Charlie I believe "VFR altitude at your discretion" means exactly that. I'd likely choose a proper VRF altitude. If the controller wants something else they will let you know or give you old heave-ho ... "Flight following cancelled, squawk VFR." :D
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Right, once they give you a squawk code and say Radar contact, they are providing the separation until either you or they terminate service, VFR or IFR.
 
I may be wrong or not wording correctly, but I do believe flight following gives many a false sense of security. The VFR pilot is seeing and avoiding, piloting, and PICing. ATC is just providing safety advisories to the best of his ability.
 
texasclouds said:
No, they (VFR flight following) are providing traffic advisories on an as-available basis. Only IFR gets true traffic separation.
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IFR traffic gets separation from IFR traffic. You still need to look out the window when able as well. Flying IFR gives many a false sense of security.

Joe_B1 said:
I disagree, if they can't provide the service, they will say "Radar service terminated, squawk 1200, frequency change aproved". If they give you an altitude or heading, they are providing separation. Of course, you still are responsible for remaining in VFR conditions and if you can't comply with the controllers direction, say "unable" .
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It depends on what kind of airspace you're in. In most of the airspace you would receive radar advisories in, there is no separation provided.
 
Ed Haywood said:
No, this is just flat out wrong. Not even a matter of opinion.
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No it’s not, VFR traffic gets separation from other aircraft in certain airspace like B and C, but not in D and E, of course see and avoid still comes into play too.
texasclouds said:
I may be wrong or not wording correctly, but I do believe flight following gives many a false sense of security. The VFR pilot is seeing and avoiding, piloting, and PICing. ATC is just providing safety advisories to the best of his ability.
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Sort of, but they’re still receiving separation from other aircraft in certain airspace (see above). The IFR pilot flying in VMC is also see and avoid, so that IFR flight plan may be a false sense of security at times too.
 
texasclouds said:
I may be wrong or not wording correctly, but I do believe flight following gives many a false sense of security. The VFR pilot is seeing and avoiding, piloting, and PICing. ATC is just providing safety advisories to the best of his ability.
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Agreed! Flight following is another set of eyes i.e. another tool along with the pilot seeing and avoiding, and using ADSB if available. When they call traffic and you have a visual on it you are told to maintain visual separation. The responsibility belongs to the PIC.
 
Ed Haywood said:
No, this is just flat out wrong. Not even a matter of opinion.
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Site please. The AIM states that VFR flight following is at the controllers discretion but if they provide it, you are under radar control. It also states that the controllers primary job is to provide IFR traffic separation but if they give you a code, they are providing Radar advisories for you as well. If the controllers workload prevents them from providing VFR services, they will terminate. But until they terminate, they will provided Radar advisories.
 
RyanB said:
No it’s not, VFR traffic gets separation from other aircraft in certain airspace like B and C, but not in D and E, of course see and avoid still comes into play too.
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Also in a TRSA, but who's counting. ;)
 
Joe_B1 said:
Site please. The AIM states that VFR flight following is at the controllers discretion but if they provide it, you are under radar control. It also states that the controllers primary job is to provide IFR traffic separation but if they give you a code, they are providing Radar advisories for you as well. If the controllers workload prevents them from providing VFR services, they will terminate. But until they terminate, they will provided Radar advisories.
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No you're not. As Ryan and I pointed out, it depends on what airspace you're in.

The easy/simple way to tell if you're being provided separation is how the controller calls out traffic to you. Do they give you a heading to fly to avoid it or just tell you where it is and expect you to deal with it?
 
Joe_B1 said:
Site please. The AIM states that VFR flight following is at the controllers discretion but if they provide it, you are under radar control. It also states that the controllers primary job is to provide IFR traffic separation but if they give you a code, they are providing Radar advisories for you as well. If the controllers workload prevents them from providing VFR services, they will terminate. But until they terminate, they will provided Radar advisories.
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Advisories != Separation
 
texasclouds said:
You still need to honor East-West VFR altitudes. He is just letting you know you can change if needed.
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Yep. Otherwise, the controller will tell you the local altimeter setting, and if you still don't get the hint, remind you to maintain an altitude appropriate for your direction of flight.
 
Salty said:
Advisories != Separation
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OK, I agree. The difference is if you are IFR, the controller is going to give you altitudes and headings according to the routing of your flight plan. They will vector you around any conflicting traffic.

If you are VFR, they will call out potential conflicts and it is up to you to see and avoid. But if you are on a conflicting heading, they may give you a heading to fly to avoid the traffic.

The OP was if you are getting VFR flight following, do you have to fly the VFR cruising altitudes based on your heading and I still say no, when the controller says altitude your discretion, that means fly at whatever altitude you need to to maintain VFR or avoid turbulence or what ever.
 
focal_plane said:
"Approach N1234 @4000 to maintain VFR, will resume appropriate VFR altitude when able" used many times with slightly different twists.
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Just because you do it doesn’t mean it meets the regulatory requirements.
 
On a flight from KCON to KSFM called approach asked for FF at 5500. As we got closer to the coast. The bottoms were at about 5000 so asked for lower. Got altitude at pilots discretion, maintain VFR. we decended to about 4000.
 
JOhnH said:
I was flying with a friend the other day in marginal VFR weather. We were using flight following, but there was a layer of clouds at our altitude (5500). The friend requested to descend to avoid clouds. Controller said "Altitude your discretion", so he began his descent. When we got to around 4,000 the cloud layer broke but there were clouds under us, so he stayed there. I told him "you can't stay at an IFR altitude" and he reminded me that the controller said altitude was his discretion. Now I haven't taken flight training since 1973, but this isn't my interpretation of discretion. Am I wrong?
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It would also depend on if you were in cruise flight or if you were you temporarily maenuevering.
 
Clip4 said:
Just because you do it doesn’t mean it meets the regulatory requirements.
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Lettin em know intentions. If they don't like it, they'll tell you and you'll work out a different plan.
 
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focal_plane said:
Lettin em know intentions. If they don't like it, they can tell you and you'll work out a different plan.
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So what are you doing on Flight Following outside or on the edge of a Tracon where they can’t see aircraft without a transponder?
 
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The whole “unless authorized by ATC” in 91.159 isn’t a blanket approval authorization for ATC.

It’s a bit gray but ATC can allow VFR altitudes that don’t comply with 91.159 but it’s only mentioned in airspace that provides VFR sep (B,C,TRSA). Once leaving that airspace the controller is required to tell the pilots to “resume appropriate VFR altitudes.”

Now, do you as a pilot care about their requirements? They allowed you to operate at an altitude of your discretion. It’s on them.
 
Clip4 said:
So what are you doing on Flight Following outside a Tracon where Center can’t see aircraft without a transponder?
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Ya lost me Cheefy. High probability you'll respond with another fabulously witty reply to get the last word. Have at it.
 
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I think the horse that we are beating with this thread has died.
 
As long as the controller you are working with agree, any altitude is OK.

Eastbound, VFR at 5,500, with flight Following, I encountered a severe, and continuing updraft. Yes, that can happen.

Called my controller, and advised that I was at idle power, and rising out of my reported altitude. He responded "I suggest that since when you fly out of that updraft, you may encounter a strong down draft, exceeding your climb capability. If you resume cruise power, altitude at pilots discretion up to 12,000 feet"

I acknowledged affirmatively, and soon found myself at about 8,000, but not climbing.

I reported this to ATC, and he said "Maintain level flight until I give you an assigned altitude".

10 or 15 minutes later, we requested a cruise descent to college Park MD, and then began a steady slow reduction to pattern altitude.

Key points here...both the controller and I knew what I was going to be doing, and agreed.

The controller was in fact monitoring traffic to assure that I was not going to meet anybody.

Due to the presence of the two towering thunderstorms that I had passed well clear of, and between, no other VFR traffic was up there. I had blue sky above me the whole flight, good visibility, and no turbulence, just that strong smooth updraft.

I strongly suspect that my controller was a GA pilot. He certainly thought like one. I have heartily criticized a few select controllers, but his one was one of many fine examples of the best in the business of keeping us safe.
 
focal_plane said:
Ya lost me Cheefy. High probability you'll respond with another fabulously witty reply to get the last word. Have at it.
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My point is,depending on distance from the radar antenna, ATC cannot see aircraft with a transponder and thus cannot separate traffic. A claim in this thread is ATC is separating VFR traffic thus the VFR altitudes are optional. They cannot separate VFR traffic unless everyone is participating.
 
Joe_B1 said:
Site please. The AIM states that VFR flight following is at the controllers discretion but if they provide it, you are under radar control. It also states that the controllers primary job is to provide IFR traffic separation but if they give you a code, they are providing Radar advisories for you as well. If the controllers workload prevents them from providing VFR services, they will terminate. But until they terminate, they will provided Radar advisories.
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You had said "...they are providing the separation until either you or they terminate service, VFR or IFR..." Radar Advisories and 'separation' are not the same thing.
 
RyanB said:
No it’s not, VFR traffic gets separation from other aircraft in certain airspace like B and C, but not in D and E, of course see and avoid still comes into play too.

Sort of, but they’re still receiving separation from other aircraft in certain airspace (see above). The IFR pilot flying in VMC is also see and avoid, so that IFR flight plan may be a false sense of security at times too.
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That should be certain other aircraft in certain airspace. There is no separation requirement between VFR aircraft in Class C like there is in Class B or a TRSA.
 
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luvflyin said:
You had said "...they are providing the separation until either you or they terminate service, VFR or IFR..." Radar Advisories and 'separation' are not the same thing.
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See post #23.
 
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