temporary w/b changes

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Seth.A

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Seth.A
I've got a checkride coming up. The plane I have scheduled recently had its 2nd radio removed for repair. I'm under the impression that they should have made a w/b update when they pulled the radio, my CFI suggests they may not be required since its temporary. I say my CFI's reasoning goes against common sense since the plane will be flow in the interim. I'm probably wrong, but I'm having trouble finding the regs to say one way or the other.

little help?
 
Bell206 said:
If the radio weighed less than 1lb no correction is needed to the empty weight and balance whether the removal is temporary or not.
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I don't know of many radios that weigh less than 1lb, though.
 
Your instructor is full of it. Temporary doesn't mean a thing if the plane is flown without it.
I can almost guarantee the radio ways more than a pound. A KX155 weighs about 5 pounds. Even my tiny little SL30 NAV com is over 3 lpounds.
What radio was removed?
 
Seth.A said:
I've got a checkride coming up. The plane I have scheduled recently had its 2nd radio removed for repair. I'm under the impression that they should have made a w/b update when they pulled the radio, my CFI suggests they may not be required since its temporary. I say my CFI's reasoning goes against common sense since the plane will be flow in the interim. I'm probably wrong, but I'm having trouble finding the regs to say one way or the other.

little help?
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Someone may correct me, but I don't think the DPE will verify the accuracy of your W&B. They want to know if your airplane has one, and more importantly, that you know what a W&B is and how to use it.
 
RRAT said:
I don't think the DPE will verify the accuracy of your W&B
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The spot where the 2nd radio used to be has a placard saying "removed for repair", which seems like an excellent opportunity for a DPE to ask me if that requires a w&b update.
 
Seth.A said:
The spot where the 2nd radio used to be has a placard saying "removed for repair", which seems like an excellent opportunity for a DPE to ask me if that requires a w&b update.
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Yeah, that then is a question begging to be asked. You are wise to chase it down and make sure everything obvious is in order. I trained in a plane with a sticky magnetic compass (we used the gps for headings), but refused to use it for the checkride until it was fixed. I didn't want to explain to the examiner why we were flying a plane with faulty required equipment, although I probably could have gotten away with it by answering "Gosh, It's never done that before".
 
Seth.A said:
but so far I haven't found anything to say they can skip it.
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There isn't. If the item weighs more than a pound the empty weight needs to be corrected along with the equipment list. Theres no such thing as a temporary removal. The changes could be done on a separate added form since the radio will be reinstalled. But without a writeup and new EWB it could lead to an interesting Q&A session for you and the examiner or not. Good luck.
 
Seth.A said:
The spot where the 2nd radio used to be has a placard saying "removed for repair", which seems like an excellent opportunity for a DPE to ask me if that requires a w&b update.
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I don’t believe it would ever come up for a private applicant in a rental aircraft because it’s not a renters responsibility to determine if the Basic empty weight is correct.

Weight and Balance Handbook, page 7-1


Introduction
The largest weight changes that occur during the lifetime of an aircraft are those caused by alterations and repairs. It is the responsibility of the FAA-certificated mechanic or repairman doing the work to accurately document the weight change and record it in both the maintenance records and the Pilot’s Operating Handbook/Aircraft Flight Manual (POH/AFM
 
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Not that hard to write up a new w&b sheet, do the math, have an A&P sign it, and you're covered for whatever the DPE might come up with.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t believe it would ever come up for a private applicant in a rental aircraft because it’s not a renters responsibility to determine if the Basic empty weight is correct
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You've got to be kidding. It is entirely incumbent on the PIC to ascertain the airworthiness of the aircraft. While he's not responsible for determining the empty weight, if he KNOWS there is an airworthiness concern, and he flies anyhow, he can be busted (not just on the checkride but with a real FAA enforcement action). Here he knows the aircraft lacks a correct W&B because equipment was removed. Further, I'd like to see the log book entry of whoever removed this radio and authorized the aircraft to return to service without a corrected W&B. That person has also committed a violation.
 
flyingron said:
You've got to be kidding. It is entirely incumbent on the PIC to ascertain the airworthiness of the aircraft. While he's not responsible for determining the empty weight, if he KNOWS there is an airworthiness concern, and he flies anyhow, he can be busted (not just on the checkride but with a real FAA enforcement action). Here he knows the aircraft lacks a correct W&B because equipment was removed. Further, I'd like to see the log book entry of whoever removed this radio and authorized the aircraft to return to service without a corrected W&B. That person has also committed a violation.
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91.213 - Inoperative instruments and equipment.

(3) The inoperative instruments and equipment are -

(i) Removed from the aircraft, the cockpit control placarded, and the maintenance recorded in accordance with § 43.9 of this chapter; or

(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenanceon the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft
 
Clip4 said:
91.213.
(4) A determination is made by a pilot, who is certificated and appropriately rated under part 61 of this chapter, or by a person, who is certificated and appropriately rated to perform maintenance on the aircraft, that the inoperative instrument or equipment does not constitute a hazard to the aircraft.
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91.213 doesn’t allow flying with an inoperative W&B.
 
MauleSkinner said:
91.213 doesn’t allow flying with an inoperative W&B.
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I am not disagreeing on that point, even though there is no such this as a inop WB, BUT unless you are going to do at EQ list search and a compare it to the date of the WB there is no way as a renter you know the WB in a plane you rent is correct. And it’s probably incorrect even if you do this due to avionics shops that guess at it.

We both know there are flight schools that do some shady crap with rental aircraft and an examiner is in the right to kick the flight schools ass over this, but not to play stump the chump with a student.
 
Clip4 said:
I am not disagreeing on that point, even though there is no such this as a inop WB, BUT unless you are going to do at EQ list search and a compare it to the date of the WB there is no way as a renter you know the WB in a plane you rent is correct. And it’s probably incorrect even if you do this due to avionics shops that guess at it.

We both know there are flight schools that do some shady crap with rental aircraft and an examiner is in the right to kick the flight schools ass over this, but not to play stump the chump with a student.
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But if there’s an empty slot in the radio rack, it’s a good bet something came out of it, and the “chump” is either going to have to come up with a good answer or not fly the checkride. The fact that the flight school has shirked its responsibility doesn’t mean the student or examiner needs to do the same.
 
The DPE undoubtedly will ask to see the logbooks of the aircraft being flown for the checkride. It behooves the applicant to see the logs are in order. It won't suffice to say he's only a renter and the obvious omission of a required logbook entry is not his responsibility. It is if he's the PIC. The annual and 100 hour inspections are also recorded in the logs and if they weren't, do you think the DPE would accept the applicant saying it's the responsibility of the school/owner, not his, to see the logs contain the required entries. Have DPEs stopped asking what AROW stands for?
 
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MauleSkinner said:
But if there’s an empty slot in the radio rack, it’s a good bet something came out of it, and the “chump” is either going to have to come up with a good answer or not fly the checkride. The fact that the flight school has shirked its responsibility doesn’t mean the student or examiner needs to do the same.
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Sorry, but I disagree. I have been a CFI for 25 years and currently work at a vert busy flight school that uses several examiners. Not one DPE has ever questioned one of my students over a removed radio, nor have I ever heard of a DPE doing so. You are creating a scenario that very rarely would happen in the real world, if ever for a private apllicant.
 
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Clip4 said:
Sorry, but I disagree. I have been a CFI for 25 years and currently work at a vert busy flight school that uses several examiners. Not one DPE has ever questioned one of my students over a removed radio, nor have I ever heard of a DPE doing so. You are creating a scenario that very rarely would happen in the real world, if ever for a private apllicant.
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Your "that would never happen" scenario happened to one of my students. :rolleyes:
 
Clip4 said:
Sorry, but I disagree. I have been a CFI for 25 years and currently work at a vert busy flight school that uses several examiners. Not one DPE has ever questioned one of my students over a removed radio, nor have I ever heard of a DPE doing so. You are creating a scenario that very rarely would happen in the real world, if ever for a private apllicant.
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I’m not creating a scenario. The scenario was created long before either one of us became CFIs. It is merely being repeated by the OP and his flight school.

On the other hand, if your “very busy flight school” is sending applicants up for checkrides in airplanes that are not properly documented, and the DPE is accepting the airplanes for the checkrides, I’d suggest a bigger issue exists.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not creating a scenario. The scenario was created long before either one of us became CFIs. It is merely being repeated by the OP and his flight school.

On the other hand, if your “very busy flight school” is sending applicants up for checkrides in airplanes that are not properly documented, and the DPE is accepting the airplanes for the checkrides, I’d suggest a bigger issue exists.
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They aren’t , but the DPEs are asking either.
 
Clip4 said:
Sorry, but I disagree. I have been a CFI for 25 years and currently work at a vert busy flight school that uses several examiners. Not one DPE has ever questioned one of my students over a removed radio, nor have I ever heard of a DPE doing so. You are creating a scenario that very rarely would happen in the real world, if ever for a private apllicant.
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Is your very busy flight school in the habit of failing to properly document the removal of equipment? If a radio was removed and properly accounted for in the logs and W&B, I could easily see a DPE moving on to something else without questioning the applicant on that particular item. Missing the required entries however is a different issue altogether and most DPEs I've known would not miss it. Would they fail the applicant? That's certainly what I would call a clean bust if they did.
 
Witmo said:
Is your very busy flight school in the habit of failing to properly document the removal of equipment? If a radio was removed and properly accounted for in the logs and W&B, I could easily see a DPE moving on to something else without questioning the applicant on that particular item. Missing the required entries however is a different issue altogether and most DPEs I've known would not miss it. Would they fail the applicant? That's certainly what I would call a clean bust if they did.
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They ARE properly documenting. The DPEs are not asking anyway. This also may be a local issue either mine or yours.
 
Clip4 said:
They aren’t , but the DPEs are asking either.
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So they’re not asking the applicant to do a weight and balance, or even asking them to show the latest weight & balance data for the airplane?
“is this airplane legal to fly without that radio?” is about the last way I’d ask that question, and if the paperwork was correct, I’d know the radio was missing before I saw the hole in the panel.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So they’re not asking the applicant to do a weight and balance, or even asking them to show the latest weight & balance data for the airplane?
“is this airplane legal to fly without that radio?” is about the last way I’d ask that question, and if the paperwork was correct, I’d know the radio was missing before I saw the hole in the panel.
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The examiners have the applicant perform XC with WB to first fuel stop, and they don’t even look at the aircraft WB documents and I have never had a DPE that did.

edit, you might know the radio was missing and the WB was incorrect. The radio (ADF) may have been removed 5 years ago, the WB correct, and you are sitting there doing a multi year logbook search to figure it out.
 
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Clip4 said:
They ARE properly documenting. The DPEs are not asking anyway.
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If the logs and w&b are in order, DPEs are not required to ask about specific entries. The OP was talking about an aircraft W&B that was not modified to account for removed equipment. If a DPE passed an applicant who used an aircraft with an expired registration or incorrect official w&B, the DPE passed an applicant who flew an unairworthy aircraft. He's required not to do that. If a DPE asked about every proper logbook entry in the maintenance record, checkrides would take forever.
 
Clip4 said:
The examiners have the applicant perform XC with WB to first fuel stop, and they don’t even look at the aircraft WB documents and I have never had a DPE that did.
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Maybe that’s why I get so many ATPs who can’t do a weight & balance to save their lives.
 
I went to the flight school this morning to verify. There was no update to the w&b when the radio was removed. I asked about it and was told the weight change was negligible and did not require an updated w&b.

This answer doesn't sit right with me, but if the A&P who signed off on the work says its good to go I'm not sure what to do about it.
 
Seems silly that the school's A&P wouldn't take 2 1/2 minutes to update the log book and mark up a W&B sheet.

MauleSkinner said:
Maybe that’s why I get so many ATPs who can’t do a weight & balance to save their lives.
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Algebra is hard. :rolleyes:

FWIW:
(Warning: This is one of my own videos - don't click if you are offended by that.)
 
Seth.A said:
I went to the flight school this morning to verify. There was no update to the w&b when the radio was removed. I asked about it and was told the weight change was negligible and did not require an updated w&b.

This answer doesn't sit right with me, but if the A&P who signed off on the work says its good to go I'm not sure what to do about it.
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The regs are straightforward. You can look up the weight of the radio, measure its moment, and include that in your calc if you like.
 
Seth.A said:
I went to the flight school this morning to verify. There was no update to the w&b when the radio was removed. I asked about it and was told the weight change was negligible and did not require an updated w&b.

This answer doesn't sit right with me, but if the A&P who signed off on the work says its good to go I'm not sure what to do about it.
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You could always request that airplane for your checkride and let the DPE break the tie. ;)

As to what to do about it, finding another flight school comes to mind, but that’s probably not high on your most wanted list right now.

Edit: keep in mind that part this checkride is to determine your ability to make the tough decisions that are required of the PIC.
 
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