What are Your Thoughts About the DPE System?

pfarber said:
A full time DPE charges at least $400. I paid $600 in the NE and that was for 4 hours and I still had to rent the plane.
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So, $150/hr is unreasonable? You realize that the DPE isn't pocketing the whole thing? He/she has to pay for insurance of various types out of that, income and business taxes, etc. And then there are the no-shows. Sorry, but I don't agree that this is unreasonable. Now, I will agree that perhaps the FAA needs to authorize more DPEs in the area, but that is a different story.
 
QUOTE="Ghery, post: 3135034, member: 128"]So, $150/hr is unreasonable? You realize that the DPE isn't pocketing the whole thing? He/she has to pay for insurance of various types out of that, income and business taxes, etc. And then there are the no-shows. Sorry, but I don't agree that this is unreasonable. Now, I will agree that perhaps the FAA needs to authorize more DPEs in the area, but that is a different story.[/QUOTE]

Yes, $150 per hour is not in line with the job they have to do.

They are not teaching, they have to follow the ACS, and the performance standards can be objectively graded.

After the oral, a PPL candidate should be given a test sheet of maneuvers, a radio frequency and a gps recorder to verify the flight maneuvers.

Other than upset maneuvers that take maybe half an hour the candidate should not need a safety pilot. The CFI sould not have signed them off if they cannot perform the ACS to standards.
 
pfarber said:
Yes, $150 per hour is not in line with the job they have to do.

They are not teaching, they have to folow the ACS, and the performance standards are clearly
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So what do you feel is "in line" with the job, and what do you feel should be their compensation?
 
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In pretty much any other situation I can think of, if the applicant pays the examiner, it would be considered bribery. But not in aviation. :D
 
Salty said:
In pretty much any other situation I can think of, if the applicant pays the examiner, it would be considered bribery. But not in aviation. :D
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So in some states, the state DOT has private driver's license examiners. Does paying them also constitute a bribe?
 
pfarber said:
They are not teaching, they have to follow the ACS, and the performance standards can be objectively graded.

After the oral, a PPL candidate should be given a test sheet of maneuvers, a radio frequency and a gps recorder to verify the flight maneuvers.
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How does this ensure that the applicant can “Divide attention between airplane control, traffic avoidance and the ground track while maintaining coordinated flight”, for example?

your argument that DPEs should make less than hair dressers is weakened by the fact that you don’t know what a DPE actually does.
 
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I don't like paying what a DPE charges, but that doesn't mean I don't also realize it's very reasonable. Getting into a maybe OK aircraft with someone that, in theory, is supposed to be able to fly it, and then ask them to simulate emergencies? No thanks... The only way being a barber is more dangerous than that is if you're in an old gangster movie.
 
Salty said:
In pretty much any other situation I can think of, if the applicant pays the examiner, it would be considered bribery. But not in aviation. :D
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The examiner makes more money if you fail though.
 
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tonycondon said:
My approach is you pay one fee to get your cert. I don't charge for retests except travel fee if you started your test with me.

I recognize this is unique
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My glider DPE had this policy. My other DPE's have had varying policies from full fee for re-test to a lesser fee for the re-test, I think it was 50%.
 
Salty said:
My glider DPE had this policy. My other DPE's have had varying policies from full fee for re-test to a lesser fee for the re-test, I think it was 50%.
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I don’t know if my glider DPE would’ve required another bottle of gin or not for a retest.

maybe he’d have shared the second one. ;)
 
Salty said:
My glider DPE had this policy. My other DPE's have had varying policies from full fee for re-test to a lesser fee for the re-test, I think it was 50%.
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As I recall (it was 10 years ago) the DPE charged less for the re-ride than for the original ride (IR).

Oh, and he isn't a DPE anymore. According to the CFII that I used a couple days ago for a flight review he was busted for being tougher on men than women and the one that did him in was passing a woman on her IR ride that had no business taking the ride. Oh, and he failed me on the first IR ride fair and square. I got too low on a non-precision approach. I didn't make that mistake on the re-ride.
 
The DPE for my PPL 22 years ago was one of the nicest gentlemen I ever met. I was extremely nervous. He had a way of calming me down, and then we just went and flew. I messed some things up, but did well enough to pass. To this day, I remember the day and respect that man.
 
I had the same guy. Except he had a way of making you nervous. And he fails people - a lot.
 
How much should the examiner make? Just curious.
 
I’m a former designee (DER, not DPE, but it works the same). We had no restraints on what we could charge, even though you had to deal with us as FAA staff would not work directly with you for the most part. It really is a government sponsored monopoly, and there should be standard cost structures and …. If the designee didn’t want to accept the cost structure, someone else meeting same requirement would like the opportunity.

as far as DPE’s go….. the program was never meant to be a full time career. It was for senior CFIs known to the FSDO to be a resource. Most were airline guys or other pro pilot, and the job was more of a part time gig and a neat experience to fly with experienced pilots as most CFIs had not much more flight time than the student.

Today the DPE program is wrought with problems in my humble opinion. I knew DPE s doing 3 check rides a day for cash like a machine, with little time between. There was little exchange of experience or advice, just business. Now local DPEs are charging $750 for a PP ride and booked months out in my area.. even though FSDO says there no need for more. In reality, they /FAA don’t want the increased oversight workload. It just seems wrong for the govt to require you conduct REQUIRED govt business through a private party but places no restraints on what they can charge you, and then limit the number of such representatives. What if this is how you would renew your car registration.

Primary check rides are straight forward, but it should be examined by someone with more than just a CFI rating as earlier comment suggest. Today, most CFIs don’t even renew the CFI rating after being hired by a regional. I’d suggest any gold seal CFI with about 500 hrs dual given that passes the DPE course be considered. This would more than likely reduce cost of rides and wait times, and there would be plenty of CFI takers. ….most of which are airline bound and don’t want to screw up with the FAA. After all, the ride is the same as the pre rides CFIs give. I know a lot of airline pilots with GA roots that would do it as well, but few want to take the check ride required to reinstate their long expired CFI cert or worry about liability.

the only way this will happen is if AOPA and EAA have the backing and push for change. GA is only getting more expensive and most aircraft owners are dying out and planes being scrapped due to cost of everything from hanger, insurance and maintenance. Any bit of cost reduction and ease of participating in GA would help.
 
WDD said:
I had the same guy. Except he had a way of making you nervous. And he fails people - a lot.
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Is making the candidate nervous supposed to be part of the test? Seems like it was, at least in my case. {If I ever had a passenger like that guy, I'd come right back around and land, and kick 'em out!}
 
ja_user said:
So your theory is that the DPE is in this for the money?
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"In it for the money" is of course a phrase that usually implies "ONLY" in it for the money. I'm a pretty active part-time CFI. I enjoy doing it, but if I was doing it for free, I certainly wouldn't be doing as much of it. So I suppose that could be called being "in it for the money".

Being a DPE, for many examiners now, is a full-time job. Which, like any full-time job, really IS being done for the money. To "put food on the table".

I figure a full-time DPE in the current economy could easily make $300k+ a year. Now, yes, there are expenses and taxes and such, but that's not bad money almost anywhere in the U.S. Certainly a "livable" income.
 
ja_user said:
So your theory is that the DPE is in this for the money?
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DPEs may or may not "be in it" for the money but they are most certainly finally incentivized to fail you vs pass you which is very jacked up system with a group of essentially independent contractors that get to make what are essentially discretionary calls with little accountability and market dominance with hardly any competition or recourse for the customers except in blatant extreme scenarios.

That in no way is every DPE but it most certainly creates an environment for them to take advantage of the situation financially.
 
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RussR said:
I figure a full-time DPE in the current economy could easily make $300k+ a year. Now, yes, there are expenses and taxes and such, but that's not bad money almost anywhere in the U.S. Certainly a "livable" income.
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I'm still wondering what kind of 'expenses' a DPE racks up? Last one I had showed up with a cup of coffee in his hand and bummed a pencil off me to take notes. I guess he had to drive to the airport.

Maybe some of the DPEs who have responded can give us a hint as to what they pay in insurance to cover this gig. I'm guessing based on the exposure, not much if they have it at all. They are not acting as PIC, and they are not doing any instruction, so certainly far less than a CFI, right?

As for taxes...well it's a pure cash business so draw your own conclusions. All I know is my last ride (ATP), I had to fork over a tall stack of Benjamins before we even got started. Something about failed student not wanting to cough up. Understandable, I guess. Yes, this was a few years ago. They probably demand payment in Bitcoin now.

C.
 
camorton said:
I'm still wondering what kind of 'expenses' a DPE racks up?
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Probably not a lot, of course. But DPEs do need to maintain currency as pilots, to the tune of 60 hours PIC a year in airplanes (for airplane DPEs). Checkrides don't count as PIC, so if they are a full-time DPE they'd have to find some other way to maintain that.

One DPE here who travels to meet you almost anywhere in the state had to buy another car because he wore his old one out driving to checkrides.

As for taxes...well it's a pure cash business so draw your own conclusions.
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I hear this thrown around often as an implied indictment of DPEs - obviously since they take cash, they must all be tax-dodging criminals. That's clearly assuming facts not in evidence.

Whenever this comes up, nobody ever offers actual real examples of tax fraud, they just "assume" it's happening.

I'm a CFI and I often take cash. Does that mean I cheat on my taxes?

While I'm sure there are some tax cheats who are DPEs just like there are in any business, this isn't like paying somebody cash to mow your lawn. Any IRS auditor would be easily able to find evidence of tax fraud. Remember, the DPE must first get approval from the FAA for every checkride. They then log into a government system (IACRA) to document the results of the checkride, whether pass, fail, or discontinue. A document is generated with the results of that (temporary cert or letter of disapproval/discontinuance). These results then go to the FAA and temporary certs are then processed by the Airman Registry. Further, the DPE often signs the logbook of a successful applicant. And then the applicant goes on social media to let everyone know they passed. The "paper trail" for a checkride is quite long.

All these records would be super easy to find. "Oh, so you did 200 checkrides this year but only claim $10,000 for income?"
 
RussR said:
I figure a full-time DPE in the current economy could easily make $300k+ a year. Now, yes, there are expenses and taxes and such, but that's not bad money almost anywhere in the U.S. Certainly a "livable" income.
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It certainly is livable…and the competition for that DPE’s time is very likely in the range of the $1800 a day that I was offered a few weeks ago.
 
if i gave enough checkrides in a year to gross $300k id probably hate myself. I'm only in my second full year as a DPE but giving 150 checkrides a year is plenty.

My expenses are primarily travel expenses. And what Russ said, the biggest flunkie at the IRS could figure this one out. Cash is my least preferred payment method anyway.
 
tonycondon said:
if i gave enough checkrides in a year to gross $300k id probably hate myself. I'm only in my second full year as a DPE but giving 150 checkrides a year is plenty.

My expenses are primarily travel expenses. And what Russ said, the biggest flunkie at the IRS could figure this one out. Cash is my least preferred payment method anyway.
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What is your most preferred? I would think Venmo / Cashapp / etc. would be best, due their almost complete lack of customer protections (meaning, they can't dispute the transfer).

Credit card seems risky due to the possibility of chargebacks. Checks are probably okay, of course someone could put a stop payment on it, but who even knows to do that anymore?

Cash seems perfect except for the obvious problem of then having to deal with a ton of cash. I have some training clients that pay in cash, and when they're paying multiple day rates it really ends up making me feel like a drug dealer.
 
venmo/paypal is probably my favorite just because its easy and instant. i have a square reader for credit cards which is fine but have to pay the fee.

i've never had anyone try to dispute the payment so thats never been a concern of mine.

agree on the feeling of carrying a bunch of cash around.
 
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