Reporting Crewmember Incapacitation?

mcdewey

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Mike
If I'm just flying along in a C172 with a buddy (both private pilots), he's left seat and flying the plane, then he suddenly becomes sick from the fish, can't fly anymore and I take over flying and complete the flight successfully, do we need to file a report with NTSB under 830.5(a)(2)

"Inability of a required flight crew member to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury of illness."

What if he had become airsick instead?

Seems like they should really only care for commercial flights.
 
No need. He’s just a friend in the other seat that you were flying with.
 
Of course it’s reportable. The PIC became incapacitated.

If you were on an airliner where the captain became incapacitated, but there was a properly rated captain in the jumpseat from the same airline, would it be a reportable event?
 
You're missing the most important part. Do not let this guy cook for you, or pick the place to eat, depending on the circumstances.
 
Where’s Ron Levy when you need him? According to “Practical Aviation Law”, Fourth Edition, by J. Scott Hamilton, (pilots) should not unnecessarily notify or give statements to anyone, and required notices and reports be given no sooner and in no greater detail than required. Which of course is the OP’s question: is it required? Unfortunately, this book doesn’t address this specific situation, however it does set forth the requirement about a required flight crew member.

That’s it, there is nothing about whether the required flight crew member must remain the same throughout the flight. Indeed, one may commonly transfer PIC duty back and forth during any flight in a plane requiring only one flight crew member, in which case the required crew is whomever is at the moment legal PIC (as opposed to logging PIC, which would actually coincide in this case).

So as a couple of posters already said, as long as you are current and qualified to fly a C172, then the moment your friend becomes incapacitated you said, “My airplane,” and he agreed. If he is not conscious and able to agree, a reasonable person may assume he would have agreed if he could. Therefore you are now PIC and you are the required crew member and therefore no part of the flight was conducted without a required crew member and therefore no report is necessary.

However, if you are not current or certified or otherwise not qualified, yet you can fly and land the plane safely, I interpret this to mean that you are required to report the incident. I’m sure that in the well publicized cases where a non-pilot passenger lands the plane after the pilot keels over, a report was made.

However if you don’t require ATC assistance nor help coaching you on getting down and no kerfluffle occurs (the pilot didn’t die but just momentarily was throwing up because, fish) and nobody other than the two of you ever knew it happened, you could get away without reporting it, and if you did make the initial report, the NTSB probably would yawn and not require a written followup. This would be risky. If there were subsequent consequences such as another in flight incapacitation and the NTSB got wind of the first one, (both of?) you could get in trouble if you didn’t report the first one.

On the other hand, maybe they want the report even if you are qualified because maybe the point is they want to know about the cause of the incapacitation to judge if there is a risk of it happening again? If that’s the case they need to clarify the rule, I would go back to the advice to not report anything not strictly necessary under the letter of the law.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney! Do not do anything based on anything I say! I probably don’t know WTH I’m talking about.
 
Where’s Ron Levy when you need him? According to “Practical Aviation Law”, Fourth Edition, by J. Scott Hamilton, (pilots) should not unnecessarily notify or give statements to anyone, and required notices and reports be given no sooner and in no greater detail than required. Which of course is the OP’s question: is it required? Unfortunately, this book doesn’t address this specific situation, however it does set forth the requirement about a required flight crew member.

That’s it, there is nothing about whether the required flight crew member must remain the same throughout the flight. Indeed, one may commonly transfer PIC duty back and forth during any flight in a plane requiring only one flight crew member, in which case the required crew is whomever is at the moment legal PIC (as opposed to logging PIC, which would actually coincide in this case).

So as a couple of posters already said, as long as you are current and qualified to fly a C172, then the moment your friend becomes incapacitated you said, “My airplane,” and he agreed. If he is not conscious and able to agree, a reasonable person may assume he would have agreed if he could. Therefore you are now PIC and you are the required crew member and therefore no part of the flight was conducted without a required crew member and therefore no report is necessary.

However, if you are not current or certified or otherwise not qualified, yet you can fly and land the plane safely, I interpret this to mean that you are required to report the incident. I’m sure that in the well publicized cases where a non-pilot passenger lands the plane after the pilot keels over, a report was made.

However if you don’t require ATC assistance nor help coaching you on getting down and no kerfluffle occurs (the pilot didn’t die but just momentarily was throwing up because, fish) and nobody other than the two of you ever knew it happened, you could get away without reporting it, and if you did make the initial report, the NTSB probably would yawn and not require a written followup. This would be risky. If there were subsequent consequences such as another in flight incapacitation and the NTSB got wind of the first one, (both of?) you could get in trouble if you didn’t report the first one.

On the other hand, maybe they want the report even if you are qualified because maybe the point is they want to know about the cause of the incapacitation to judge if there is a risk of it happening again? If that’s the case they need to clarify the rule, I would go back to the advice to not report anything not strictly necessary under the letter of the law.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney! Do not do anything based on anything I say! I probably don’t know WTH I’m talking about.

I’m ok with never having an answer to the question if Ron stays away. If you miss him he’s active on message boards elsewhere.
 
Always trying to think of questions a DPE might ask on a commercial exam.

Just give him the verbal equivalent of the wall of text I posted above. He’ll soon say okay that’s good, just to shut you up. I use this technique on my husband when I’m busy and want him to go away. I just start yammering endlessly about whatever subject is at hand and he soon leaves the room.
 
I’m ok with never having an answer to the question if Ron stays away. If you miss him he’s active on message boards elsewhere.
Who is this guy? Someone mentioned him in a thread the other day about how he’s already explained something. I went looking for it, no Ron Levy but it turns out he is known as poadeleted20. It looks like no posts here since 2015.
 
Just give him the verbal equivalent of the wall of text I posted above. He’ll soon say okay that’s good, just to shut you up. I use this technique on my husband when I’m busy and want him to go away. I just start yammering endlessly about whatever subject is at hand and he soon leaves the room.
Does he ever call your bluff and stay until you give up?:D
 
Who is this guy? Someone mentioned him in a thread the other day about how he’s already explained something. I went looking for it, no Ron Levy but it turns out he is known as poadeleted20. It looks like no posts here since 2015.
Ron isn’t a bad guy. He’s just an a hole when he thinks he is right and you’re wrong. He was never wrong. He was often right. One of those times where despite the often right I don’t miss the always right kinda people. He quoted FAA regulations the same way evangelist’s quote scripture. With about the same level of understanding as well.
I think he’s active on the purple board.
 
I’m ok with never having an answer to the question if Ron stays away. If you miss him he’s active on message boards elsewhere.

I wouldn’t say I miss him, I don’t think about him one way or the other. But I didn’t mind him. He was the one that told me to buy that book.

Ron isn’t a bad guy. He’s just an a hole when he thinks he is right and you’re wrong. He was never wrong. He was often right. One of those times where despite the often right I don’t miss the always right kinda people. He quoted FAA regulations the same way evangelist’s quote scripture. With about the same level of understanding as well.
I think he’s active on the purple board.

That’s a good description of him, on the boards anyway. He was absolutely inflexible. That can happen when someone is often right or usually right. They tend to think (subconsciously) that since the statistical odds favor them being right, then they are right this time too. But no one is always right.

I met him in person, not a bad guy at all. I found him very, what’s the right word…. taciturn, formal, no superficial airs. Not unfriendly but a very reserved friendly. Nothing wrong with any of that, unless you’re the type person who needs others to be all warm and gushy. He wasn’t that. I could envision him as a military leader. But that was just a brief interaction, I don’t really know him.
 
For me, trying to follow when my wife and two daughters had conversations, it was like trying to fly formation with someone doing a Lomcevak.

Cheers

Hahaha! When we get with my sisters, my husband is completely lost. He complains he can’t get a word in edgewise. It’s true, we grew up developing an interwoven tightly knit interactive group conversing style that you can’t break into with a crowbar.
 
Ron isn’t a bad guy. He’s just an a hole when he thinks he is right and you’re wrong. He was never wrong. He was often right. One of those times where despite the often right I don’t miss the always right kinda people. He quoted FAA regulations the same way evangelist’s quote scripture. With about the same level of understanding as well.
I think he’s active on the purple board.
How’s that old saying go. I thought I was wrong about something once. But then it turned out I was right.
 
One of my old pals told me the story of one of his training flights he stopped for lunch and had a chicken salad sandwich. Flying home he felt ill, so he climbed up to 8k feet, emptied his flight bag and puked into it. Feeling better he looked around and quickly realized he was totally lost. We live in a big city, so he just got back on course and saw it soon enough. I don’t think he made a report to anyone save the makers of the chicken sandwich.
 
Just give him the verbal equivalent of the wall of text I posted above. He’ll soon say okay that’s good, just to shut you up. I use this technique on my husband when I’m busy and want him to go away. I just start yammering endlessly about whatever subject is at hand and he soon leaves the room.
Ah, yes, the "baffle them with b.s." Method.
 
we grew up developing an interwoven tightly knit interactive group conversing style that you can’t break into with a crowbar.
By that, do you mean you talk over and interrupt each other and think it’s normal, like my wife and daughters?
 
By that, do you mean you talk over and interrupt each other and think it’s normal, like my wife and daughters?

Affirmative. But in our defense, my husband’s family goes too far to the other extreme. Their family conversations go like this: someone says a sentence, a half minute of silence ensues. Then someone else says a sentence followed by another interminable pause. Then another statement and another long gap of silence, and on like that. It’s like watching cold molasses flow. I find it very disorienting. I’m never sure what the proper time lapse is before I may speak, and I can’t figure out the subtextual signals indicating who is up next. I feel as much an outsider with them as my husband feels with my family.
 
There are replies in there where it says ^Ron Levy said. But it was poadeleted20 who said it. Can anyone just change their name?
It's automatic when you get shown the door.

But back to the topic, Youse guys are saying that if I'm flying with someone in a 172 and the other guy's eyes roll up in his/her head, that gets reported (what with me not having a medical), but no report if we are in an LSA.
That makes a lot of sense.
 
Your friend was PIC, then he became incapacitated and was unable to continue. It's fortunate that his non-crew passenger in the right seat (you) was able to assume emergency PIC responsibilities and land the plane, but that doesn't change the fact of his initial incapacitation while he was responsible for the flight.

That said, the question of whether to report and where is beyond my knowledge, since I'm not an American pilot. But the situation clearly meets the criteria that you set out in your original post.
 
My recollection is that he wanted his account deleted, but the mods don't do that, so they changed the account name instead.
Something still ain’t makin sense. Which came first? The Captain Ron or the Ron Levy?

upload_2021-8-28_18-23-51.png
 
That said, the question of whether to report and where is beyond my knowledge, since I'm not an American pilot. But the situation clearly meets the criteria that you set out in your original post.

"Inability of a required flight crew member to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury of illness."

FYI, there’s not two “required crew members” in a 172 in the USA so it does not meet the criteria if the OP is current in a 172, current Basic Med/3rd Class, etc.

Cheers
 
"Inability of a required flight crew member to perform normal flight duties as a result of injury of illness."

FYI, there’s not two “required crew members” in a 172 in the USA so it does not meet the criteria if the OP is current in a 172, current Basic Med/3rd Class, etc.

Cheers
The way I see it, if he signed for the plane, he is required. Just so happens there was someone else qualified to fly the airplane.
 
The way I see it, if he signed for the plane, he is required. Just so happens there was someone else qualified to fly the airplane.

Signing for the plane is a “normal flight duty”????? It clear to me this is only applicable to two person (or more in the case of, for example, flight attendants) crew required by the FAA to operate the aircraft.

Cheers
 
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Oh. That Captain Levy check ride sticky. I didn’t know you could just change your name. There are replies in there where it says ^Ron Levy said. But it was poadeleted20 who said it. Can anyone just change their name? I’ve heard of folk creating a whole new one. Like Sac and the eman:fingerwag:

hay hay hay
 
Ron is like cod liver oil some of us used to be forced to take when we were children. Good for the body but tastes like hell. Ron is mostly right, but his style and delivery certainly turns a lot of people off. And his constant obsession with citing Chief Counsel opinions as though they were Gospel is beyond annoying. Ron is currently tormenting Grumman Gang members. Is there any group he hasn’t ****ed off at one time or another?
 
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