First airplane, new pilot, avionics comments

[mandm]

Hi there, I’m a new pilot, instrument rated approx 150 hours during the past 18 months. I’m excited to be in contract for a Piper Arrow that looks beautiful currently having a couple things addressed in a prebuy. I train mostly in a C172 with 20+ Hrs complex. My goal is to travel around the country to visit new places (east coast and possibly down south) and this winter for snowboarding (out west). Here I want to build hours and go for my commercial and CFI ticket.

The avionics will be IFR ready but they are older (I train mostly with Garmin 650 and love that), but this plane that I found has a GNC300XL. I work on a flexible schedule and prefer to fly in calm clear weather and thought to give this a try for mostly VFR flying, mount an iPad on the panel with Foreflight and Stratus ADSB-in. Then see if I use the plane enough (and demonstrates being reliable) to consider an avionics upgrade in the future. Also since I want to start using this soon, I don’t really want to have the plane out of service for upgrades right now either.

Would like to hear your thoughts, tips and suggestions. If the setup will work as is, or if some upgrades are warranted or potentially could do a step upgrade and add on later as well. Also if any information on maintenance for the vacuum system. Some photos of the current panel now. Thanks all!

 

[Joe_B1]

Well, it depends what you want and how much money you have to spend on avionics. What you have is adequate but dated. I bought an archer a few years ago and spent a ton of cash putting in a lot of Garmin stuff, led lights, etc. because it was what I wanted to fly. Take a good look at the rest of the planes systems first. How is the engine? Usually the first annual is going to be expensive just getting the systems up to par. Once that stuff is out of the way, then start thinking about panel upgrades.

 

[mandm]

Well, it depends what you want and how much money you have to spend on avionics. What you have is adequate but dated. I bought an archer a few years ago and spent a ton of cash putting in a lot of Garmin stuff, led lights, etc. because it was what I wanted to fly. Take a good look at the rest of the planes systems first. How is the engine? Usually the first annual is going to be expensive just getting the systems up to par. Once that stuff is out of the way, then start thinking about panel upgrades.

That’s what I was thinking. Once I did the prebuy I would say everyone was a bit surprised, it was detailed. We ended up agreeing on repairing the items mentioned, all new hoses, cylinders, and a new annual and IFR cert. This is costing over 12k and basically is being split between the Seller and myself. The engine is low time but hasn’t been flown much and the last overhaul was a long long time ago. Ideally in this case all issues are addressed and the plane will be good to go for awhile (hehe my idea of awhile is several years but I guess I’ll be on here next Aug/Sept with an update on that front).

 

[Joe_B1]

That’s what I was thinking. Once I did the prebuy I would say everyone was a bit surprised, it was detailed. We ended up agreeing on repairing the items mentioned, all new hoses, cylinders, and a new annual and IFR cert. This is costing over 12k and basically is being split between the Seller and myself. The engine is low time but hasn’t been flown much and the last overhaul was a long long time ago. Ideally in this case all issues are addressed and the plane will be good to go for awhile (hehe my idea of awhile is several years but I guess I’ll be on here next Aug/Sept with an update on that front).

A prebuy isn't going to find a lot of bad stuff, it's primarily to determine airworthiness. Your first annual is going to find more stuff because the A&P is going to be putting his reputation on the line by signing off on the inspection. Just be sure to hire a really good guy to do the annual and tell him to inspect it like he was putting his kids in it. One thing to be aware of is that if it was just parked for years, engine oil is corrosive and can do a lot of damage to the bottom end. You can't see that unless the engine is closely inspected for it. Hopefully they stored it properly. Once you have crossed that hurdle, you can start to think about avionics.

At least that was my philosophy when I bought mine. Make the airframe solid and then think about the toys.

 

[chemgeek]

I would definitely save some shekels for the first two years of annuals to bring things up to par. Then, if you want to fly IFR, and have the resources,, I would spring for a WAAS GPS, AP, and G5s or equivalent in that order. WAAS opens up a whole wide world of approaches at out of the way airports.

 

[sourdough44]

As long as your radio(s) is/are fine, I’d ensure the engine is up to snuff then fly. I flew out West VFR a few years ago with an IPad mini, paired with a GDL-50 ADS feed, & Garmin Pilot. My radios were fine.

I have since moved up to dual G5’s and a GPS-175, vacuum removed. The USB charging port is nice too.

One has to stay reasonable with the budget, knowing there will be normal ownership expenses along the way. Also become familiar with some simple stuff, at least oil changes, plugs, and the like.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I generally agree with all of the above but I upgraded my avionics after only four months mainly because some of the components weren’t functional. But I still had money available afterwards in case of unexpected repairs.
You never want to be in the situation where you can’t fly because you cannot afford to fix the airplane.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

Yes, assuming your current radios work properly, what you have is totally adequate. What do you have for ADS-B-out? That, in my mind, would be a requirement for the trips you plan. The Tailbeacon unit would be the least expensive, if you aren't already equipped. Without a WAAS GPS, yes, there will be some airports where you won't have lower LPV minimums available, but the 300XL is still a viable unit. You may have to have 2 database cards, I believe those old cards aren't big enough for the whole country, so they split the database east and west. I know that happened with the old 155 units. Speaking of winter flying out west, your plans for calm/clear weather flying are great, realistically, it's a good idea to limit mountain/west flying to VFR-only in an Arrow (or similar), anyway. Your vacuum pump, and gyros, you can check logbooks for the last overhaul, they may or may not be close to time-out. The Apollo Loran, well, paired with a similar unit, makes a great set of wheel chocks. That said, no point in hurrying to remove it. Personally, I wouldn't spend the money to panel-install your iPad, either.
I'd suggest, just go fly the plane for awhile. Hopefully not, but, there are most likely to be other maintenance issues to pay for, in lieu of panel upgrades. As nice as it would be to have more modern avionics, form awhile, anyway, you can buy a lot of avgas for what even the most basic starting upgrade might cost.
Whatever you choose, have fun, congrats on your (pending) ownership, and, just go fly!

 

[BryanAV8R]

my suggestion...having gone through this a couple times on different airplanes:

1. Get the plane in your tiedown/hangar. Wash it, wax it (even if it's faded), vacuum, get the cruft out. Stand back and admire. If it looks nice and is clean, you'll feel better about it. Besides, now it's YOUR plane.
2. Fly YOUR plane for a while. Your first couple annuals may or may not make your eyes water. But in the end, it will be mechanically what YOU feel comfortable hopping in and flying off on your adventures.
3. While doing #2, figure out what you feel is lacking for your mission profile. There is a sorting out that I do: must have, should have, would be nice to have. It changes, but there are some things that move up or down the sort, or never move.
4. Save up your money. Prioritize using the above sorted list.
5. Make a plan with your shop. You don't have to do ALL of it, but, if you're going all in, it's cheaper to rip out everything the first time than do it piecemeal where you have multiple disassemblies and reassemblies.
6. Remember, it's a journey, not a destination. And budget at least 50% MORE than you think. There is always the 'well, while we're doing X...might as well do Y..." that comes along. For instance, I just had the dual G5/GFC500 install and was on the fence about putting in the autotrim as part of the package. To put it in next year after it was all back together would have added more AMUs to the cost than doing it while she was opened up to do the initial install. Now I'm kicking myself I didn't add the Yaw Dampner......but I'll get over it...
7. It will take longer (most times) than forecast. My recent upgrade (even with me doing a lot of the grunt work, pulling bundles, building out the stack harness (I did it under the direct, watchful gaze of the A&P/IA doing the rest of the install), building the circuit breaker busses, wiring the yoke, coordinating the building of the new panels, etc etc etc...including me unpaneling it for the simultaneous annual and patching some minor cracks) was billed out at 110 hrs. There is a LOT of work to do on a complete panel upgrade, trust me. And I'd do it again given the chance.
8. If you feel like rushing...see #1-4.

But, in the end...the radio stack I flew for a few years was (which I installed when I bought the plane with old Narco Mark12Ds and a Loran):



Served me well for a few years. But, handflying light IFR for a couple hours at a stretch became tiring...so...decided to upgrade the panel, get rid of the vacuum system, and put in some automation to reduce single pilot workload:



Whatever you do...take it slow, take it one step at a time and remember, it's YOUR plane, so, build it to YOUR mission profile and desires...and enjoy flying YOUR plane.

Was it worth it for a 52-year-old C172K with 10K hours in the logbook and a halftime engine that was field overhauled in the late 90s (but still has clean oil analyses and 70+/80 on all four jugs)? Probably not, but considering the market, I'm probably just broken even. But, I'm not in the business of buying and selling planes, so...she does what I want and fits my mission profile. And that's what counts. Not the prettiest on the ramp. But not a scruffy dog, either.

Just my $.02.

 

[David Megginson]

Agreed with everyone else: fly it for a while as it is, then decide what (if anything) you feel is missing.

If after that you do decide that you want a more-modern GPS navigator and you need ADS-B in/out, the Garmin GNX 375 could be a good choice, since it will give you both for $8K + installation:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/577174

 

[mandm]

As long as your radio(s) is/are fine, I’d ensure the engine is up to snuff then fly. I flew out West VFR a few years ago with an IPad mini, paired with a GDL-50 ADS feed, & Garmin Pilot. My radios were fine.

I have since moved up to dual G5’s and a GPS-175, vacuum removed. The USB charging port is nice too.

One has to stay reasonable with the budget, knowing there will be normal ownership expenses along the way. Also become familiar with some simple stuff, at least oil changes, plugs, and the like.

Do you know what maintenance a pilot could do and how often? I believe oil changes and filter are every 50 hours (look at the oil filter for metal - unsure if it’s a visual look or something more in depth). I’m unsure about the life of the spark plugs or any other mx besides the annual.

 

[David Megginson]

Do you know what maintenance a pilot could do and how often? I believe oil changes and filter are every 50 hours (look at the oil filter for metal - unsure if it’s a visual look or something more in depth). I’m unsure about the life of the spark plugs or any other mx besides the annual.

For a privately-registered, certified light piston plane in the U.S., you're allowed to do everything classified as "Preventative maintenance" in subpart (c):

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/appendix-A_to_part_43

 

[mandm]

Yes, assuming your current radios work properly, what you have is totally adequate. What do you have for ADS-B-out? That, in my mind, would be a requirement for the trips you plan. The Tailbeacon unit would be the least expensive, if you aren't already equipped. Without a WAAS GPS, yes, there will be some airports where you won't have lower LPV minimums available, but the 300XL is still a viable unit. You may have to have 2 database cards, I believe those old cards aren't big enough for the whole country, so they split the database east and west. I know that happened with the old 155 units. Speaking of winter flying out west, your plans for calm/clear weather flying are great, realistically, it's a good idea to limit mountain/west flying to VFR-only in an Arrow (or similar), anyway. Your vacuum pump, and gyros, you can check logbooks for the last overhaul, they may or may not be close to time-out. The Apollo Loran, well, paired with a similar unit, makes a great set of wheel chocks. That said, no point in hurrying to remove it. Personally, I wouldn't spend the money to panel-install your iPad, either.
I'd suggest, just go fly the plane for awhile. Hopefully not, but, there are most likely to be other maintenance issues to pay for, in lieu of panel upgrades. As nice as it would be to have more modern avionics, form awhile, anyway, you can buy a lot of avgas for what even the most basic starting upgrade might cost.
Whatever you choose, have fun, congrats on your (pending) ownership, and, just go fly!

That’s what I was thinking. The plane has the uAvionics tailbeacon adsb-out. I have a portable Stratus for adsb-in.

When I mention panel mounted iPad, I was thinking of installing one of these ram mounts (photo below) in the open panel space by the transponder, wondering if it’s something I can just drill in and if the panel is strong enough to support the iPad as well.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

If doing it piece meal, select the radio stack, then do the pilot’s panel. By choosing upgrades section by section, you’ll minimize redundant expenses…

 

[mandm]

Agreed with everyone else: fly it for a while as it is, then decide what (if anything) you feel is missing.

If after that you do decide that you want a more-modern GPS navigator and you need ADS-B in/out, the Garmin GNX 375 could be a good choice, since it will give you both for $8K + installation:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/577174

The 375 looks great and I just flew in a trainer with one. The only downside was the split keyboard where you can only access half of the alphabet at a time but I guess easy to get used to. I guess I thought adsb and transponder was the same? When ATC says squawk 5451 isn’t that using the adsb? Or adsb and transponder are separate things?

 

[David Megginson]

The 375 looks great and I just flew in a trainer with one. The only downside was the split keyboard where you can only access half of the alphabet at a time but I guess easy to get used to. I guess I thought adsb and transponder was the same? When ATC says squawk 5451 isn’t that using the adsb? Or adsb and transponder are separate things?

There are different levels of transponder:

• Mode A lets ATC determine your position using secondary-surveillance radar (SSR).
• Mode C adds your pressure altitude to the signal.
• Mode S adds a unique identifier for your aircraft.
• ADS-B sends your WAAS GPS position, type, and callsign via a separate channel (UAT or ES).

There are some after-market fixes that provide the ADS-B-out info that ATC requires through a device other than your transponder, but in modern transponders, it's more normal to have it built in. There's also ADS-B in, which lets you see other traffic, and optionally (mainly in the U.S.) weather and ATC's traffic view via UAT.

The benefit of the GNX 375 is that it's a transponder (with ADS-B in/out) and WAAS GPS navigator all rolled into one, and also includes wireless connectivity with your tablet, so it can replace your old transponder and your old GPS.

 

[somorris]

I can understand that you are excited and anxious to get your avionics like you want them. I am like most folks here -- fly it like it is equipped for a while before you jump in and start spending money. The panel you showed, if everything works (not counting the LORAN), will be fine for VFR flying and even for IFR flying. You may want something like a Garmin 650 at some point, but for now that panel should suffice.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

That’s what I was thinking. The plane has the uAvionics tailbeacon adsb-out. I have a portable Stratus for adsb-in.

When I mention panel mounted iPad, I was thinking of installing one of these ram mounts (photo below) in the open panel space by the transponder, wondering if it’s something I can just drill in and if the panel is strong enough to support the iPad as well.

Great. all set for ADSB-Out. IPad mount, originally thought you meant a docking port, or such. But, yeah, the Ram mounts, don't know if that panel you mention would hold up. If it's thick enough metal, and mounted into an existing (unused) avionics rack's slot, probably plenty stout, But, it could simply be a minimal "hole cover." mounted into the weak upholstery panels, can't really tell from the picture, but I'd guess that may be the case.

 

[asicer]

The 375 looks great and I just flew in a trainer with one. The only downside was the split keyboard where you can only access half of the alphabet at a time but I guess easy to get used to.

When the keyboard is up, you can spin the knobs to enter letters/numbers just like the old GNS430, G1000, etc.

However, it sounds like you already have ADSB In/Out through other means. I think the GNC355 would be a more natural upgrade path for your plane. You'll likely be taking out the GNC300XL, a COM radio + GPS navigator. The GNC355 is a COM radio + WAAS GPS navigator, so it's more of a 1-for-1 swap.
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/689774

 

[brcase]

I am going to say what everyone else is saying. Fly for at least a year before doing any major avionics upgrades the plane has a very capable panel, assuming everthing works, If stuff isn't working then you have to decide if you can wait, if it is worth fixing, or better to just jump in with new stuff.

I Have flown with the 300XL and it is an excellent GPS, Just does not have WAAS or the fancy display that the 650 has. If you are really used to the 650 you might find not having a great moving map display an issue. But in most cases the 300XL will take you 98% of the places the 650 will. The only time you would actually need the 650 (or waas capability) is if you are shooting approaches that need the lower LPV minimums, otherwise LNAV approaches should get you anywhere you should want to go. If you need the WAAS Capability IMO you should probably have an Autopilot also unless you are always going to fly with a 2nd pilot.

After flying it for a year you will have better idea about what kinds of flights you had skip because of inadequate equipment, which will be very few IMO. Probably more importantly you will have a better idea what the condition of all the systems in the airplane is, and what may or may not need attention soon, then you can decide if you should start putting money into nice to have things.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL