More solo IFR (and no autopilot)

Baflier

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
5
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Display Name

Display name:
baflier
Hi All - I really appreciate reading others' experiences with actual IMC. Admittedly I've been a risk averse IFR pilot since getting my rating in 2006 but have kept current with regular and frequent CFII training over the years. In the past couple of years I've focused on moving past the risk aversion and have stepped up my training significantly and have also started to look for IMC conditions that I'm comfortable in. Today was a good example where I filed, picked up clearance, took off in VMC from home airport and flew 50 nm through overcast and broken layers (ultimately into solid IMC) to an RNAV approach. The Cirrus SR-20 I was in had an INOP autopilot, a known item, so I hand flew the two hour flight, just like my early training when I got my instrument ticket in a C-172SP.

With no autopilot I had to really work at my scan and focus on relying on the artificial horizon even in straight and level IMC. A total mind over matter experience. I've studied the psychology of this in books, have hours and hours of hood time in VMC, flown with my instructor in IMC.

But for a low IMC pilot like me I've found there is just no substitute for doing it alone, in actual, under decent personal minimum conditions.

It would be great to hear from other instrument pilots of their experiences when they "transitioned" to being more comfortable hand flying in IMC. I assume at some point you reach a comfort level in your aircraft, in IMC, which is similar to VMC? Looking for advice, insight, whatever ...

Evidence of IMC is attached!

Thanks!
baflier
Screen Shot 2021-08-08 at 1.15.49 PM.png
 
Hi All - I really appreciate reading others' experiences with actual IMC. Admittedly I've been a risk averse IFR pilot since getting my rating in 2006 but have kept current with regular and frequent CFII training over the years. In the past couple of years I've focused on moving past the risk aversion and have stepped up my training significantly and have also started to look for IMC conditions that I'm comfortable in. Today was a good example where I filed, picked up clearance, took off in VMC from home airport and flew 50 nm through overcast and broken layers (ultimately into solid IMC) to an RNAV approach. The Cirrus SR-20 I was in had an INOP autopilot, a known item, so I hand flew the two hour flight, just like my early training when I got my instrument ticket in a C-172SP.

With no autopilot I had to really work at my scan and focus on relying on the artificial horizon even in straight and level IMC. A total mind over matter experience. I've studied the psychology of this in books, have hours and hours of hood time in VMC, flown with my instructor in IMC.

But for a low IMC pilot like me I've found there is just no substitute for doing it alone, in actual, under decent personal minimum conditions.

It would be great to hear from other instrument pilots of their experiences when they "transitioned" to being more comfortable hand flying in IMC. I assume at some point you reach a comfort level in your aircraft, in IMC, which is similar to VMC? Looking for advice, insight, whatever ...

Evidence of IMC is attached!

Thanks!
baflier
View attachment 99002

Having done most of my IMC flying without an autopilot, it feels unsafe when I do use one. I tend to monitor the instruments even more vigilantly, as if the autopilot might take over and try to kill me.
 
Having done most of my IMC flying without an autopilot, it feels unsafe when I do use one. I tend to monitor the instruments even more vigilantly, as if the autopilot might take over and try to kill me.
I spent my first autopilot IFR flight with my thumb poised over the red button.

Now when doing currency work I do everything twice, once by had and once with the AP. I don't want to be in the position of trying to recover from the "What is this thing doing" mode.
 
I didn't have an autopilot for about a decade after getting the IR. The AP makes it much easier to program the boxes and brief approaches than without. Especially as you get older. I trained in quite a bit of actual, so going solo IFR was not a big deal. But it does take a lot of concentration when solid bumpy IMC.
 
As a new IFR pilot although I hand fly for currency, when the chips are down and my family is on board I consider a functional ap (at least heading mode) to be a go/no go item.
 
As a new IFR pilot although I hand fly for currency, when the chips are down and my family is on board I consider a functional ap (at least heading mode) to be a go/no go item.

Same here, I'll fly practice approaches by hand but would probably think long and hard about departing with an inop autopilot in hard IMC. SR22.
 
All of my actual IMC has been by hand in my Cardinal. Only a few hours here and there. The first time I did this deliberately I had a bit of a thought as I entered the clouds “if I screw up I could kill myself here”. That went away after some more experience shortly thereafter though came back again briefly after not flying actual IMC for a year. Whenever I enter the clouds it is always with a bit of apprehension until I am out.
 
My early actual, including when I was training for the rating, was sans autopilot (also no GPS even DME). Since then I graduated (and love the tech) but will hand fly to keep the skills up. Turned out to be a good idea. A few years ago I signed up for a Pilot n Paws flight and found the club airplane's autopilot placarded "INOP." 1.1 actual with one countable approach is not that big a deal but is a bit tiring when it is part of a 5.2 hour flight day.
 
The day after I got my instrument rating, I flew in the clouds nearly the whole way, from Michigan to Maine, in a plane without an autopilot. Baptism by fire, I guess...although it was a Cherokee, which practically flew itself without an autopilot. After several years of IFR without an autopilot, about a month ago I bought a plane with an AP. But the idea of turning it on, and then trusting it while on instruments, now sounds scarier than hand flying.
 
My take is this:

If A/P is a part 91 go no go decision you shouldn't be flying IMC with or without one.

Opinions are great things Ed, thanks for sharing yours, glad it works for you.
 
Opinions are great things Ed, thanks for sharing yours, glad it works for you.

The problem with it being a go no go piece of equipment is how bad is someone at hand flying that they feel they can't without an autopilot, and what about when it craps out (not if, but when) in IMC. Do you really want someone who thinks they are incompetent without one (and chances are they are) whizzing around in IMC? Or worse yet, someone who thinks they arent but actually are because they HAVE to have an AP for IMC?

We don't need any more Jerrys out there.
 
The day after I got my instrument rating, I flew in the clouds nearly the whole way, from Michigan to Maine, in a plane without an autopilot. Baptism by fire, I guess...although it was a Cherokee, which practically flew itself without an autopilot. After several years of IFR without an autopilot, about a month ago I bought a plane with an AP. But the idea of turning it on, and then trusting it while on instruments, now sounds scarier than hand flying.
Give it time. A friend of mine felt the same way. After decades of rentals with semi- and nonfunctional autopilots he started flying with good ones. But just didn't trust them. Avoided using it like the plague.

Until that long trip when he decided to use it enroute and was substantially less tired when it came time for approach workload.

Just don't make the common mistake of trusting the autopilot without verifying it is doing what you expect it too. That's how problems and over dependence occurs.
 
The problem with it being a go no go piece of equipment is how bad is someone at hand flying that they feel they can't without an autopilot, and what about when it craps out (not if, but when) in IMC. Do you really want someone who thinks they are incompetent without one (and chances are they are) whizzing around in IMC? Or worse yet, someone who thinks they arent but actually are because they HAVE to have an AP for IMC?

We don't need any more Jerrys out there.
Choices don't automatically imply ability. Your effort at reading minds aside, the no go choice for a inop autopilot on a long trip does not automatically mean objective or subjective incompetence. People's choices are not as simplistic as that. "I choose not to" is not the same as "I am unable to."
 
The problem with it being a go no go piece of equipment is how bad is someone at hand flying that they feel they can't without an autopilot, and what about when it craps out (not if, but when) in IMC. Do you really want someone who thinks they are incompetent without one (and chances are they are) whizzing around in IMC? Or worse yet, someone who thinks they arent but actually are because they HAVE to have an AP for IMC?

We don't need any more Jerrys out there.

I get that EdFred, but you make assumptions you shouldn't. I fly ifr without the AP often, both on a simulator, which I fly regularly and in IMC. I'm comfortable flying with out the AP but have set a personal minimum that if it's INOP I won't go. I adopted this personal minimum after talking with 3 or 4 different airline and corporate guys, with a bazillion hours, who do the same thing, because it makes sense to me. I also do an IPC annually and at least one actual approach a month plus at least 5 or 6 practice approaches a month, usually more. You can't just think you are proficient at hand flying, you need to practice it. I always shudder when I hear about VFR guys scud running. I ask if they are worried about ending up in actual, they tell me they spent time under the hood training. I ask when was the last time they were under the hood, they say when they last trained, which is at least a few years for most of them.
 
I, personally, wouldn't put much stock in what corporate/121 jet guys do or say. They hit the A/P at 1000' and play systems monitor until they descend back through 1000' again. (I kid, I kid it's 500'). Of course they are going to say the A/P is a no go item for them.

Just wait, in about 10 years we are going to have people saying "I won't drive a car if it doesn't have lane assist, or autobraking." I don't want those people on the road, and I put those devices in the same category as an autopilot.
 
I have never owned an airplane with autopilot, but have flown one. I put the autopilot in the same general category as cruise control on a car or truck. It helps make a trip less tiring, whether flying IFR or VFR.
 
Hi All - I really appreciate reading others' experiences with actual IMC. Admittedly I've been a risk averse IFR pilot since getting my rating in 2006 but have kept current with regular and frequent CFII training over the years. In the past couple of years I've focused on moving past the risk aversion and have stepped up my training significantly and have also started to look for IMC conditions that I'm comfortable in. Today was a good example where I filed, picked up clearance, took off in VMC from home airport and flew 50 nm through overcast and broken layers (ultimately into solid IMC) to an RNAV approach. The Cirrus SR-20 I was in had an INOP autopilot, a known item, so I hand flew the two hour flight, just like my early training when I got my instrument ticket in a C-172SP.

With no autopilot I had to really work at my scan and focus on relying on the artificial horizon even in straight and level IMC. A total mind over matter experience. I've studied the psychology of this in books, have hours and hours of hood time in VMC, flown with my instructor in IMC.

But for a low IMC pilot like me I've found there is just no substitute for doing it alone, in actual, under decent personal minimum conditions.

It would be great to hear from other instrument pilots of their experiences when they "transitioned" to being more comfortable hand flying in IMC. I assume at some point you reach a comfort level in your aircraft, in IMC, which is similar to VMC? Looking for advice, insight, whatever ...

Evidence of IMC is attached!

Thanks!
baflier
View attachment 99002
I got my instrument rating in 2003 and didn't get an autopilot until 2011, so I had 8 years of hand-flying hard IFR. It wasn't too bad in a docile, fixed-gear (so, spiral-resistant) plane like the Piper PA-28-161, but I'd still be flat-out exhausted after flying 6–8 hours in a day for Hope Air flights in IMC and bumpy air; eventually, I decided that I'd pay for a hotel room and fly home the next day instead of trying to fly all over Ontario in a single day at 124 knots.

My first long flight after getting my simple, single-axis S-TEC 20 autopilot in 2011 was Ottawa to Winnipeg and back. On the return flight — even with just heading mode (I didn't have an IFR GPS yet) — when I landed home in Ottawa early afternoon after a pre-dawn start in Winnipeg, and a fuel stop in Thunder Bay, I realised that I wasn't exhausted at all, and could have flown on for a few more hours. That's the difference an autopilot makes. You should never fly a flight with an autopilot that you don't feel safe and competent to fly without one, but with the autopilot's help, you can do more flying in a day without burning yourself out, especially if you're dealing with a lot of IMC and turbulence.
 
I, personally, wouldn't put much stock in what corporate/121 jet guys do or say. They hit the A/P at 1000' and play systems monitor until they descend back through 1000' again. (I kid, I kid it's 500'). Of course they are going to say the A/P is a no go item for them.

Just wait, in about 10 years we are going to have people saying "I won't drive a car if it doesn't have lane assist, or autobraking." I don't want those people on the road, and I put those devices in the same category as an autopilot.

You and I are going to disagree on this one. I just want to be clear, I'm not advocating an AP as a substitute for proficiency, I work hard to stay proficient hand flying in IMC. IN fact if you only hand fly, you probably shouldn't use the AP as it can get you in trouble too, just look at Jerry. Anyway, it's a personal mins thing for me.
 
You and I are going to disagree on this one. I just want to be clear, I'm not advocating an AP as a substitute for proficiency, I work hard to stay proficient hand flying in IMC. IN fact if you only hand fly, you probably shouldn't use the AP as it can get you in trouble too, just look at Jerry. Anyway, it's a personal mins thing for me.
You could take personal minima two ways:
  1. Lower minimum if you have a serviceable autopilot.
  2. Same minima with or without an autopilot.
You're right that we'll probably disagree (which is the point of a friendly debate), but if my personal minimum were (say) 800 ft and 2 miles day IFR without an autopilot, I wouldn't accept any lower with an autopilot — I don't want to start any flight that I'm not confident finishing if any one piece of automation fails (GPS, radio, autopilot, cockpit weather, etc).

p.s. My actual personal minimum for day IFR are more complex: I need 2,000 ft usable below the freezing level if I won't be able to get above through a thin SC layer, no SLD icing forecast, no worse than scattered embedded CB, and a main destination airport that meets Canadian alternate minima; so with two usable precision approaches at my destination, it would be 400+1; with one precision approach, 600+2 (or 700+1½ or 800+1); and with non-precision approaches only, 800+2 (or 900+1½, or 1000+1).
 
Last edited:
You could take personal minima two ways:
  1. Lower minimum if you have a serviceable autopilot.
  2. Same minima with or without an autopilot.
You're right that we'll probably disagree (which is the point of a friendly debate), but if my personal minimum were (say) 800 ft and 2 miles day IFR without an autopilot, I wouldn't accept any lower with an autopilot — I don't want to start any flight that I'm not confident finishing if any one piece of automation fails (GPS, radio, autopilot, cockpit weather, etc).

So in my case, the AP doesn't enter into my DH personal mins. Those are +500 and 2 miles. So an lpv with a 200 ft dh would be 700 and 2 miles. I don't care if I fly it manually or with the AP. For practice I fly to the mins with a safety pilot or in the sim.
 
You and I are going to disagree on this one. I just want to be clear, I'm not advocating an AP as a substitute for proficiency, I work hard to stay proficient hand flying in IMC. IN fact if you only hand fly, you probably shouldn't use the AP as it can get you in trouble too, just look at Jerry. Anyway, it's a personal mins thing for me.

So, why is it a no go? If proficient, then whether the plane has A/P or not shouldn't matter, right? What am I missing? You (in this case a personal you) are proficient at hand flying, so why does the plane NEED to have an autopilot? I would ask if it's your red handle, but you already have one of those. ;)
 
So in my case, the AP doesn't enter into my DH personal mins. Those are +500 and 2 miles. So an lpv with a 200 ft dh would be 700 and 2 miles. I don't care if I fly it manually or with the AP. For practice I fly to the mins with a safety pilot or in the sim.
Me too. My personal minimums are not autopilot-dependent. Mostly because I know my autopilot can crap out.
 
So, why is it a no go? If proficient, then whether the plane has A/P or not shouldn't matter, right? What am I missing? You (in this case a personal you) are proficient at hand flying, so why does the plane NEED to have an autopilot? I would ask if it's your red handle, but you already have one of those. ;)

Personal mins are tough to justify for me when you ask why. But it's to be safer. Is it absolutely necessary, no, but it's a choice I feel makes me safer. I'm fine shooting approaches to mins, yet I choose to limit my actual mins to +500. It just gives me more outs if I or something else screws up.
 
Fair enough just trying to figure out other's thought processes, especially when proficient. Hell I've seen people on the board that won't fly CAVU without a working A/P.
 
Fair enough just trying to figure out other's thought processes, especially when proficient. Hell I've seen people on the board that won't fly CAVU without a working A/P.

I am by far not the world's greatest pilot, but I work hard to be safe and proficient. Right now I fly between 120 and 150 hours per year. Sometimes I even leave the autopilot off for a flight.
 
20 hr IFR student here. I prefer AP at present as there are so many tasks setting up for three approaches in an hour and a half. CFII has now said time to turn AP off and hand fly due to dependency, need for proficiency, and I've been slow on turns a number of times fiddling with AP. I get the slow turn part.

I expect I will take advantage of available technology as I fly in IFR with periodic hand flying to maintain proficiency. I am not interested in multi hour trips without AP on.
 
It depends on the trip. If it’s hard IMC the whole way and I’m doing a 2 hour flight, an AP would be nice but I probably wouldn’t scrub the trip if it was inop. I have refused a plane at my regional due to an inop AP. It was a 5 leg day, ILS down to mins on every flight, and the last leg is delayed going up to BGR with an arrival time around 1am. We’ve been on duty for 12 hours and we’re getting to the point of almost calling in fatigued. We get to the plane and have an inop AP. Weather in BGR was right down to CAT I mins and I told the FO I don’t want to take the plane up there without an AP. He agreed and we called our dispatcher and they got us a new plane. Every situation is different. If it was VMC the whole way, I probably would have taken the plane. Like I said in the beginning, it just depends on the flight.
 
I also have a minimum of no passengers in IMC without either a proficient instrument rated pilot in the right seat or a working autopilot and someone proficient at operating that autopilot and flying at least in VMC in the right seat. If something happens to me I want to know that others in the plane have a chance at survival.
 
I also have a minimum of no passengers in IMC without either a proficient instrument rated pilot in the right seat or a working autopilot and someone proficient at operating that autopilot and flying at least in VMC in the right seat. If something happens to me I want to know that others in the plane have a chance at survival.
Do you brief your pax in operating the A/P? (Sincere question.).

It's probably easier with new ones where you can tell them just "hit the big blue button" or something like that, but for older autopilots I'm not sure how much passengers could benefit from them if I were incapacitated.
 
Fair enough just trying to figure out other's thought processes, especially when proficient. Hell I've seen people on the board that won't fly CAVU without a working A/P.
Me? I'm lazy. Figure I've earned it. I'd rather not work hard unless I have to. Most trips are not that essential. If it is, I'll go.
 
Do you brief your pax in operating the A/P? (Sincere question.).

It's probably easier with new ones where you can tell them just "hit the big blue button" or something like that, but for older autopilots I'm not sure how much passengers could benefit from them if I were incapacitated.

My only non IR right seat passenger is my wife. She did Pinch Hitter VFR flight training and flies the plane and speaks with ATC to maintain proficiency for an emergency. She also knows how to set my simple Century IIB autopilot into heading mode which gives her wings level and directional control. Altitude control is her responsibility.

She isn't going to be flying approaches to minimums or navigating by other than radar vectors. But she has a fighting chance to, with ATC's help, reach visual conditions either below the clouds or in a sufficiently clear region nearby, and then fly the plane to a safe (if not damage free) landing. The key to this, though, is that the autopilot keeps the wings level and prevents the plane from a disorientation induced death spiral.

The other possibility that I see is a right seat passenger VFR pilot. The Century IIB has only 3 setting switches. Two get turned from off to on, and the third gets set straight up for heading mode. It shouldn't be too much of a challenge for a VFR pilot to operate it. But I would have that discussion with them prior to instrument flight.
 
So, why is it a no go? If proficient, then whether the plane has A/P or not shouldn't matter, right? What am I missing? You (in this case a personal you) are proficient at hand flying, so why does the plane NEED to have an autopilot? I would ask if it's your red handle, but you already have one of those. ;)

First, at a minimum, an autopilot can be a safety net against task saturation and upset recovery. There are many more things that can go wrong in a flight that you can think of and it's great to have a safety net. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want one.

On a long IFR, an autopilot has been shown to greatly reduce pilot fatigue. This keeps you more alert for hand flying an approach, if you choose to, and reduces the chances of one of the issues from the first point.

So, by all means stay proficient at hand flying, but I see no reason not have a safety net.
 
First, at a minimum, an autopilot can be a safety net against task saturation and upset recovery. There are many more things that can go wrong in a flight that you can think of and it's great to have a safety net. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want one.

On a long IFR, an autopilot has been shown to greatly reduce pilot fatigue. This keeps you more alert for hand flying an approach, if you choose to, and reduces the chances of one of the issues from the first point.

So, by all means stay proficient at hand flying, but I see no reason not have a safety net.

If you cant walk on a 2 x 4 thats 6" off the ground without a safety net under you, maybe you need to step back and assess your ability to walk, and also why a safety cushion isn't NEEDED for such a task.

Sure it nice to have, but something that's a go/no go decision? Hardly.
 
First, at a minimum, an autopilot can be a safety net against task saturation and upset recovery. There are many more things that can go wrong in a flight that you can think of and it's great to have a safety net. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want one.

On a long IFR, an autopilot has been shown to greatly reduce pilot fatigue. This keeps you more alert for hand flying an approach, if you choose to, and reduces the chances of one of the issues from the first point.

So, by all means stay proficient at hand flying, but I see no reason not have a safety net.
Skylark Airpark? I used to fly out of Ellington!

But I guess since you admit to the possibility that task saturation can occur in single pilot IFR, you are not a "real pilot."

Only kidding, of course. I am squarely in the group which thinks that there is a difference between "I can't" and "I won't." And that wearing a belt instead of holding your pants up by hand is not a sign of weakness.
 
If you cant walk on a 2 x 4 thats 6" off the ground without a safety net under you, maybe you need to step back and assess your ability to walk, and also why a safety cushion isn't NEEDED for such a task.

Sure it nice to have, but something that's a go/no go decision? Hardly.

The larger point, which I think you are missing, is that there are more reasons to want the safety net than you can imagine. How about a medical issue that comes up? What about a vacuum failure? A rate based autopilot is a great thing to have in that case.

You keep trying to make this about a person's assumed lack of ability when it's a responsible decision. The silly 2x4 comparison does nothing to reinforce your point. If you don't see the difference between IFR flying (which kills pilots, friends and family each year) and walking a 2 x 4 6" off the ground, I would suggest that you need to reassess your reasoning and risk analysis.

Those who consider it a go/no go item are making their own sensible and responsible decision based on his risk tolerance. They realize that they don't need to fly at all costs, responsibly assesses risk and make the decision to go/not go that they are comfortable with.

As another example, I use 2 backup attitude indicators for all hard IMC flight, a Dynon D2 and Stratus/Foreflight. I don't fly IMC without at least one backup. You may like IFR flying by turn coordinator. I think it's much better to avoid it if at all possible. And it is. So I do.
 
Now when doing currency work I do everything twice, once by had and once with the AP. I don't want to be in the position of trying to recover from the "What is this thing doing" mode.

^ This

Like many here I flew single pilot IFR for years without an AP, or a very weak one. The Arrow I flew had an AP that could just follow a heading bug, and the DG precessed, so it rarely was used.

Now I fly with a STEC-55x. I practice in IMC, doing both coupled and manual approaches. Never know when the AP system (controller, motors or inputs) will fail. Or when the idiot pilot will set it up wrong; been there, done that.



Wayne
 
Me? I'm lazy. Figure I've earned it. I'd rather not work hard unless I have to. Most trips are not that essential. If it is, I'll go.

Thats kinda how I see it too. If it’s just an hour flight in bumpy IMC with an approach at the end. That’s a go, with or without an autopilot. Now if it’s a 4 hour flight, IMC most of the way and no autopilot. I will probably rethink going on that day. I fly because I enjoy it. 4 hours in rough IMC without an autopilot… Yeah, I can definitely do it, but it won’t be much fun.
 
The larger point, which I think you are missing, is that there are more reasons to want the safety net than you can imagine. How about a medical issue that comes up? What about a vacuum failure? A rate based autopilot is a great thing to have in that case.

You keep trying to make this about a person's assumed lack of ability when it's a responsible decision. The silly 2x4 comparison does nothing to reinforce your point. If you don't see the difference between IFR flying (which kills pilots, friends and family each year) and walking a 2 x 4 6" off the ground, I would suggest that you need to reassess your reasoning and risk analysis.

Those who consider it a go/no go item are making their own sensible and responsible decision based on his risk tolerance. They realize that they don't need to fly at all costs, responsibly assesses risk and make the decision to go/not go that they are comfortable with.

As another example, I use 2 backup attitude indicators for all hard IMC flight, a Dynon D2 and Stratus/Foreflight. I don't fly IMC without at least one backup. You may like IFR flying by turn coordinator. I think it's much better to avoid it if at all possible. And it is. So I do.

You're pretty much wrong. If you are flying IFR you better damn well be able to do it like walking a 2 x 4 or you shouldn't be flying under IFR, autopilot or not. 20 years without an autopilot or a busted altitude or ATC correcting my heading. It is like walking on a 2 x 4. If you think it isn't maybe you need to reassess your skill set and get with a CFII who will put you through the ringer so that when you DO fly IFR you aren't *requiring* an autopilot to do the flight.

What if a medical issue comes up when VFR? Guess we NEED an AP for every flight now.
 
Back
Top