CFI Bootcamp or Venture North?

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ZebraPilot

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ZebraPilot
I have been struggling with my CFI training. I'm 48 years old, with a family and a full time job so there are a lot of external factors that get in my way. The unstructured approach at the local flight schools in my area haven't been working for me. So I am looking for a flight school with an accelerated, structured program to get me through the CFI Initial.

The ones that come up most frequently upon research are CFI Bootcamp and Venture North. Any thoughts or opinions on their programs?

By the way, if it matters at all I have no illusions about completing the certificate in 5 days. I doubt I could do that. If it takes 10 days, or 15 days, or even 20 days that's fine as long as there is a real program that allows me to march toward the goal.
 
There is no substitute for studying the FAA materials which is what the FAA will test you on.
 
ZebraPilot said:
I have been struggling with my CFI training. I'm 48 years old, with a family and a full time job so there are a lot of external factors that get in my way. The unstructured approach at the local flight schools in my area haven't been working for me. So I am looking for a flight school with an accelerated, structured program to get me through the CFI Initial.

The ones that come up most frequently upon research are CFI Bootcamp and Venture North. Any thoughts or opinions on their programs?

By the way, if it matters at all I have no illusions about completing the certificate in 5 days. I doubt I could do that. If it takes 10 days, or 15 days, or even 20 days that's fine as long as there is a real program that allows me to march toward the goal.
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I am amazed there are 5-day CFI programs. Anything learned that fast is also going to fade fast too. But if you are going to go into full time instructing right away that would be ok. But if you are going to be a part time instructor, a slower approach will work out better.
 
sarangan said:
I am amazed there are 5-day CFI programs. Anything learned that fast is also going to fade fast too. But if you are going to go into full time instructing right away that would be ok. But if you are going to be a part time instructor, a slower approach will work out better.
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IMO, there really isn’t much to learn for the CFI. You should already be competent on all maneuvers, and academics.
What is needed is flying from right seat, learning proper endorsements, lesson plans, and brush up on some more obscure stuff. I think 5 days is fine *IF* you are up to snuff on everything else. Now, if there’s a long gap between CP and CFI, than more review will be needed.
 
Kritchlow said:
IMO, there really isn’t much to learn for the CFI. You should already be competent on all maneuvers, and academics.
What is needed is flying from right seat, learning proper endorsements, lesson plans, and brush up on some more obscure stuff. I think 5 days is fine *IF* you are up to snuff on everything else. Now, if there’s a long gap between CP and CFI, than more review will be needed.
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In terms of flying, I would agree there isn't much new to learn. But in terms of FARs, AIM, AC's, there is quite a lot. While none of these should be new information, as an instructor you become the source of knowledge for others, so the depth of understanding has to be much greater. May be I am a slow learner, but I am amazed anyone could get to that level of depth in 5 days.
 
Kritchlow said:
What is needed is flying from right seat, learning proper endorsements, lesson plans, and brush up on some more obscure stuff. I think 5 days is fine *IF* you are up to snuff on everything else. Now, if there’s a long gap between CP and CFI, than more review will be needed.
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Yep, for me about a 15 year gap between Commercial and CFI.
 
My friend did accelerated IR and Commercial at Venture North. Having the planes, CFII's and DPE at same location worked for him.
 
sarangan said:
In terms of flying, I would agree there isn't much new to learn. But in terms of FARs, AIM, AC's, there is quite a lot. While none of these should be new information, as an instructor you become the source of knowledge for others, so the depth of understanding has to be much greater. May be I am a slow learner, but I am amazed anyone could get to that level of depth in 5 days.
Click to expand...

This is very true. The flying portion is the least of the worries. It is the ground portion that is the real challenge. One would think that once to the point of having a commercial rating they should have a grasp on the the information needed to teach. But I have seen first hand that is completely wrong. I have been coming across CFI students that make me question how they even passed their checkrides at all. I only equate that to they had garbage for CFIs to begin with and managed to make it past a DPE, or they did all their training at the pilot mills.
 
TommyG said:
This is very true. The flying portion is the least of the worries. It is the ground portion that is the real challenge. One would think that once to the point of having a commercial rating they should have a grasp on the the information needed to teach. But I have seen first hand that is completely wrong. I have been coming across CFI students that make me question how they even passed their checkrides at all. I only equate that to they had garbage for CFIs to begin with and managed to make it past a DPE, or they did all their training at the pilot mills.
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Seen the same but the flying was lacking as well. Pilot mill grad with a new commercial certificate couldn't do the commercial maneuvers properly.
 
TommyG said:
This is very true. The flying portion is the least of the worries. It is the ground portion that is the real challenge. One would think that once to the point of having a commercial rating they should have a grasp on the the information needed to teach. But I have seen first hand that is completely wrong. I have been coming across CFI students that make me question how they even passed their checkrides at all. I only equate that to they had garbage for CFIs to begin with and managed to make it past a DPE, or they did all their training at the pilot mills.
Click to expand...

Yes, that seems puzzling. Especially since you will want to just teach from standardized lesson plans that cover each element of the CFI PTS for the particular item assigned. Once you have those, how do you miss?
 
ZebraPilot said:
I have been struggling with my CFI training. I'm 48 years old, with a family and a full time job so there are a lot of external factors that get in my way. The unstructured approach at the local flight schools in my area haven't been working for me. So I am looking for a flight school with an accelerated, structured program to get me through the CFI Initial.

The ones that come up most frequently upon research are CFI Bootcamp and Venture North. Any thoughts or opinions on their programs?

By the way, if it matters at all I have no illusions about completing the certificate in 5 days. I doubt I could do that. If it takes 10 days, or 15 days, or even 20 days that's fine as long as there is a real program that allows me to march toward the goal.
Click to expand...
Kritchlow said:
IMO, there really isn’t much to learn for the CFI. You should already be competent on all maneuvers, and academics.
What is needed is flying from right seat, learning proper endorsements, lesson plans, and brush up on some more obscure stuff. I think 5 days is fine *IF* you are up to snuff on everything else. Now, if there’s a long gap between CP and CFI, than more review will be needed.
Click to expand...

The right seat flying is the easiest part of the CFI process. Obtaining instructional knowledge is the hardest part.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Yes, that seems puzzling. Especially since you will want to just teach from standardized lesson plans that cover each element of the CFI PTS for the particular item assigned. Once you have those, how do you miss?
Click to expand...

Boils down to people that shouldn’t be teaching, teaching. It then just trickles down to new students getting garbage instruction. Even worse is DPEs are passing these students.
 
Clip4 said:
The right seat flying is the easiest part of the CFI process. Obtaining instructional knowledge is the hardest part.
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Agreed, but IMO, teaching skills cannot be taught.
Either you have it, or you you don’t.
 
sarangan said:
In terms of flying, I would agree there isn't much new to learn. But in terms of FARs, AIM, AC's, there is quite a lot. While none of these should be new information, as an instructor you become the source of knowledge for others, so the depth of understanding has to be much greater. May be I am a slow learner, but I am amazed anyone could get to that level of depth in 5 days.
Click to expand...
Much if that is home study.
That said, we were not expected to know all that when I did my CFI. It was a much simpler time I guess.
I did my CFI when only the Feds could do it (1988 ish) and it was a lot different than what you see today.
 
Kritchlow said:
Agreed, but IMO, teaching skills cannot be taught.
Either you have it, or you you don’t.
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The mentor CFI is teaching the CFI applicant how to teach. (Or I should say the good CFIs are) It’s a micro not macro approach. If the CFI applicant cannot demonstrate he can teach he will not be getting the endorsement for the test and that should be made clear at the beginning of CFI training.
 
Kritchlow said:
Much if that is home study.
That said, we were not expected to know all that when I did my CFI. It was a much simpler time I guess.
I did my CFI when only the Feds could do it (1988 ish) and it was a lot different than what you see today.
Click to expand...

Yes, all of that was home study for me as well. I poured through everything, including FAA legal interpretations and other obscure stuff. I was told you have to know it all. I also had my checkride with the FSDO (1998 ish). I am curious what is different today. Are you saying they need to know even more? That's not the sense I am getting from meeting the new CFIs.
 
When you and I completed CFI training, everything was simple task related. Today it is task and ADM related. ADM, CRM, and risk management just to name 3 major that have been added. TAA aircraft is another area where the new CFI may be teaching technology in addition to stick and rudder.
 
Yeah, you're gonna have to know about:

DECIDE
CARE
PAVE
If you can't do these you will not pass.

....in addition to stick and rudder. This is the CFI morphing from INSTRUCTOR to TEACHER.
 
One important aspect of being a CFI that hasn't been mentioned yet is the ability to research and find answers in reference materials. This is where taking an accelerated class/bootcamp/whatever you want to call it will screw you. You won't know which reference to look in and where, if you don't read them.
 
sarangan said:
Yes, all of that was home study for me as well. I poured through everything, including FAA legal interpretations and other obscure stuff. I was told you have to know it all. I also had my checkride with the FSDO (1998 ish). I am curious what is different today. Are you saying they need to know even more? That's not the sense I am getting from meeting the new CFIs.
Click to expand...

The other thing which I have been told is rather different today is that the DPEs are encouraged to tell the applicant to teach a specific task in the CFI PTS and to cover every point there, rather than having the applicant give a lesson as they would to a student in real life. My understanding is that it used to be more focused on giving what would be a good lesson to a student.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
The other thing which I have been told is rather different today is that the DPEs are encouraged to tell the applicant to teach a specific task in the CFI PTS and to cover every point there, rather than having the applicant give a lesson as they would to a student in real life. My understanding is that it used to be more focused on giving what would be a good lesson to a student.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen complaints here about busts on both sides of that…one that didn’t include everything because it would be more than one flight, and one that didn’t have a canned lesson plan because it was an aircraft checkout scenario or some such and he apparently couldn’t come up with a lesson plan.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve seen complaints here about busts on both sides of that…one that didn’t include everything because it would be more than one flight, and one that didn’t have a canned lesson plan because it was an aircraft checkout scenario or some such and he apparently couldn’t come up with a lesson plan.
Click to expand...

Yes, it has probably become more difficult for the FAA with the DPEs giving these, rather than their employees. It may just be a skill set that it is hard to standardize testing for and still produce quality instructors.

Maybe one way to do it would be to have two components to the ground. An objective component, similar to the current ground session but with a reduced number of tasks to ensure the really essential factual materials are covered and then a component which tests an actual lesson plan or two as would be given to a student to test teaching ability.

Already this can be a crazy long ground session if the DPE is thorough so it seems like some shortening might be in order.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Yes, it has probably become more difficult for the FAA with the DPEs giving these, rather than their employees. It may just be a skill set that it is hard to standardize testing for and still produce quality instructors.

Maybe one way to do it would be to have two components to the ground. An objective component, similar to the current ground session but with a reduced number of tasks to ensure the really essential factual materials are covered and then a component which tests an actual lesson plan or two as would be given to a student to test teaching ability.

Already this can be a crazy long ground session if the DPE is thorough so it seems like some shortening might be in order.
Click to expand...
The examiner has to make sure the applicant knows how to ensure that all ACS points would be included, but I don’t believe all ACS points have to be taught during the oral, especially if it would comprise more than one flight lesson.

the applicant simply has to be smart enough to figure out how to make sure all ACS points are included (possibly by, I don’t know, maybe some obscure method like referencing the ACS), as well as noting that it would take a couple of flight lessons, and let the DPE pick which flight lesson he wants taught.

the applicant also has to know how to interview a learner (played by the DPE) to determine what elements would be appropriate and build a lesson plan for a checkout/flight review/IPC/whatever non-canned event the DPE may select.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
The other thing which I have been told is rather different today is that the DPEs are encouraged to tell the applicant to teach a specific task in the CFI PTS and to cover every point there, rather than having the applicant give a lesson as they would to a student in real life. My understanding is that it used to be more focused on giving what would be a good lesson to a student.
Click to expand...

I don’t know who is allegedly encouraging DPEs to do this, but it would be a very easy lesson to give if the mentoring CFI properly instructed the applicant. “Show me how your CFI taught you to give this lesson”.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The examiner has to make sure the applicant knows ow to ensure that all ACS points would be included, but I don’t believe all ACS points have to be taught during the oral, especially if it would comprise more than one flight lesson.
Click to expand...

Apparently there is some contention over this point. I checked with the FSDO on this and initially was told that no, all the points for a specific task do not have to be covered in one lesson, as you suggest. OTOH, this might be interpreted to conflict with what is in the CFI PTS on page 7 in bold "Any Task selected for evaluation during a practical test must be evaluated in its entirety".

Likely the best solution as an applicant is simply to grind through all the points for a task while noting that this may not be the way one would teach it in a single lesson to a student. If one has prepared lesson plans, perhaps based on a purchased set, I don't see how one can miss.

Clip4 said:
I don’t know who is allegedly encouraging DPEs to do this, but it would be a very easy lesson to give if the mentoring CFI properly instructed the applicant. “Show me how your CFI taught you to give this lesson”.
Click to expand...

I suspect it is an easy way for a DPE to run the test as they can just check off whether each item is mentioned. My understanding is that the FAA is encouraging this approach and that some local groups of DPEs are emphasizing this approach as well in their meetings.
 
MauleSkinner said:
the applicant also has to know how to interview a learner (played by the DPE) to determine what elements would be appropriate and build a lesson plan for a checkout/flight review/IPC/whatever non-canned event the DPE may select.
Click to expand...

It is a good idea, but I don't know that this is done much anymore. Some of the DPEs just want to have the applicant run through everything in the required tasks and just ask for that. Agreed that is not a good way to actually teach students and may be part of the mismatch that people are noting in this thread.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Apparently there is some contention over this point. I checked with the FSDO on this and initially was told that no, all the points for a specific task do not have to be covered in one lesson, as you suggest. OTOH, this might be interpreted to conflict with what is in the CFI PTS on page 7 in bold "Any Task selected for evaluation during a practical test must be evaluated in its entirety".
Click to expand...
On the other hand, the note in the lesson task is that it would be taught as it would be to the student.
IV.
Preflight Lesson on a Maneuver to be Performed in Flight
Note: Examiner must select at least one maneuver Task from Areas of Operation VII through XIII, and ask the applicant to present a preflight lesson on the selected maneuver as the lesson would be taught to a student.
Click to expand...
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Certainly not the first time we've seen possible contradiction in the interpretation of FAA requirements :)
Click to expand...
I don’t see a contradiction…the “entire task” in the CFI PTS is the ability to teach the subject and identify common errors. “All the points” are in the Private or Commercial ACS, as appropriate. Those don’t all have to be covered in one lesson.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I don’t see a contradiction…the “entire task” in the CFI PTS is the ability to teach the subject and identify common errors. “All the points” are in the Private or Commercial ACS, as appropriate. Those don’t all have to be covered in one lesson.
Click to expand...

I agree with your interpretation. But some, if not most, of recent DPEs don't. They insist that all points must be covered in one lesson.

So I suspect it is best to tell CFI applicants, such as the future OP, that they should cover them all in one lesson. Likely the best default position until known otherwise.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I agree with your interpretation. But some, if not most, of recent DPEs don't. They insist that all points must be covered in one lesson.
Click to expand...
If that’s happening with DPEs in your area, maybe complaints to the FSDO are in order, as your FSDO obviously agrees.

So I suspect it is best to tell CFI applicants, such as the future OP, that they should cover them all in one lesson. Likely the best default position until known otherwise.
Click to expand...
Hopefully whoever the OP trains with will be able to provide guidance appropriate to the DPE used.
 
Avoid this scam like the plague. I know the instructors involved, have for years. Mike is a gay bigot who makes endless condescending jokes with insulting dialects about every "minority" -- Asians, Indians, Russians, Cubans, Mexicans -- everyone. He thinks he's a comedian; mostly he's just fat and tired. He was a DPE and FAA fired him -- for good reason. The classroom presentations are lame, dull, with lots of powerpoint slides full of nothing but text, and long-winded "there I was" stories. More often than not it's taught remotely via zoom. Half the time is spent in "breakouts" where students (you) practice teaching other students. The blind leading the blind. They have sweetheart deals with Examiners -- but you have to travel to them because none of the local DPEs will pass these completely unprepared applicants. Sherry is a saucy cougar who will be totally into you if you're male with a six-pack (on your body, not the plane.) Otherwise, you'll fly with a handful of other low-time instructors. You may come out of it with a CFI certificate, but you'll be completely incompetent, unprepared, lack confidence, and your future students will notice. Want to be a a real CFI? Good for you. It's an honorable job. Put in the effort to do it the right way. This place is a stain on the profession, and saying you trained with CFI Bootcamp will absolutely not open any doors. Complete waste of your money and, more importantly, your time.
 
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